1 00:00:29,850 --> 00:00:32,394 The book, as I read it, 2 00:00:32,436 --> 00:00:37,817 advocates the violent overthrow of the American government. 3 00:00:41,736 --> 00:00:45,907 I was very fed up with the government. 4 00:00:49,035 --> 00:00:50,536 But it wasn't... 5 00:00:50,578 --> 00:00:53,373 It wasn't a call to action. 6 00:00:53,415 --> 00:00:58,960 There's no call to action in the book itself. 7 00:00:59,001 --> 00:01:01,630 How often do you read the book? 8 00:01:04,883 --> 00:01:07,553 I haven't read it since I wrote it. 9 00:01:09,137 --> 00:01:10,597 I don't have a copy of it. 10 00:01:21,817 --> 00:01:25,944 On the original, it was just the warning. 11 00:01:25,986 --> 00:01:28,614 "Keep in mind that the topics written about here 12 00:01:28,656 --> 00:01:30,950 "are illegal and constitute a threat. 13 00:01:30,992 --> 00:01:32,619 "Also, more importantly, 14 00:01:32,661 --> 00:01:35,120 "almost all the recipes are dangerous. 15 00:01:35,162 --> 00:01:38,665 "This book is not for children or morons." 16 00:01:38,706 --> 00:01:40,417 It's true. 17 00:01:40,459 --> 00:01:44,086 It's not a book for children, and it's not a book for morons. 18 00:01:44,128 --> 00:01:45,630 Um... 19 00:01:52,762 --> 00:01:54,681 The book is published in 1970. 20 00:01:54,722 --> 00:01:59,477 You were equipping people with this knowledge to do what? 21 00:01:59,519 --> 00:02:03,355 I'm... Yeah, I don't think that... 22 00:02:06,149 --> 00:02:09,779 I don't think I hoped they would do anything with it, quite frankly. 23 00:02:10,987 --> 00:02:13,198 "This is a book for anarchists... 24 00:02:13,239 --> 00:02:16,368 "those who feel able to discipline themselves 25 00:02:16,409 --> 00:02:19,662 "on all the subjects, from drugs to weapons, to explosives." 26 00:02:19,704 --> 00:02:22,289 I don't think the book actually says, 27 00:02:22,331 --> 00:02:24,500 "This is what you should do with this information." 28 00:02:31,256 --> 00:02:33,217 In fact, it doesn't. 29 00:02:33,258 --> 00:02:35,344 "A freedom fighter can never surrender, 30 00:02:35,386 --> 00:02:37,888 "for if he does, he becomes part of the problem. 31 00:02:37,929 --> 00:02:40,557 "There is no trial in times of trouble. 32 00:02:40,598 --> 00:02:43,184 "Just torture and death." 33 00:02:45,187 --> 00:02:48,690 It's not, you know, "let's go and burn the government down." 34 00:02:48,732 --> 00:02:50,525 I... That's not there. 35 00:02:53,737 --> 00:02:57,698 "The only laws an individual can truly respect and obey 36 00:02:57,740 --> 00:02:59,825 "are those he instills in himself. 37 00:02:59,867 --> 00:03:02,704 "There is only one choice for a real man, 38 00:03:02,746 --> 00:03:05,247 "and that is revolution." 39 00:03:05,288 --> 00:03:07,583 "This country, with its institutions, 40 00:03:07,624 --> 00:03:09,835 "belongs to the people who inhabit it. 41 00:03:09,877 --> 00:03:12,629 "Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, 42 00:03:12,671 --> 00:03:15,631 "they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, 43 00:03:15,673 --> 00:03:20,596 "or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." 44 00:03:20,637 --> 00:03:22,638 So, what were you advocating? 45 00:03:24,515 --> 00:03:27,435 I think I was advocating people to think for themselves. 46 00:03:28,343 --> 00:03:34,342 47 00:03:35,233 --> 00:03:38,069 Bomb-making is essentially open-source information. 48 00:03:38,111 --> 00:03:40,072 And it has been that way for a long time. 49 00:03:40,114 --> 00:03:42,449 It has been that way since before the Internet. 50 00:03:42,490 --> 00:03:45,159 In the late 1960s and early 1970s, 51 00:03:45,201 --> 00:03:48,623 the US went through a period when we had lots of bombings. 52 00:03:48,664 --> 00:03:51,832 Bombs went off in Southern California, Northern California, 53 00:03:51,874 --> 00:03:53,292 also in New York City. 54 00:03:53,333 --> 00:03:55,962 From the middle of that morass emerged this: 55 00:03:56,003 --> 00:03:57,756 "The Anarchist Cookbook." 56 00:03:57,798 --> 00:03:59,298 So many bombings in the '70s, 57 00:03:59,339 --> 00:04:01,675 large dynamite bombs all over the place. 58 00:04:01,717 --> 00:04:04,428 And we would frequently find "The Anarchist Cookbook" 59 00:04:04,470 --> 00:04:06,513 at the bomber's house when we served the search warrants. 60 00:04:06,556 --> 00:04:07,765 "The Anarchist Cookbook"... 61 00:04:07,807 --> 00:04:10,016 A do-it-yourself bomb-making manual 62 00:04:10,057 --> 00:04:12,852 written in the early 1970s by William Powell. 63 00:04:26,992 --> 00:04:28,909 Would you say you are uncomfortable 64 00:04:28,951 --> 00:04:31,036 identifying yourself as an American? 65 00:04:31,077 --> 00:04:35,499 I'm not comfortable with an identity 66 00:04:35,540 --> 00:04:39,586 that links me with one patriotic group. 67 00:04:41,713 --> 00:04:45,175 Over the years, have you been contacted by the media? 68 00:04:45,216 --> 00:04:48,302 Oh, there was a string of invitations to interview. 69 00:04:48,344 --> 00:04:51,096 Requests from BBC, "Newsweek," 70 00:04:51,138 --> 00:04:53,766 "The Guardian," Charlie Rose... 71 00:04:53,808 --> 00:04:56,686 I didn't know who Charlie Rose was. 72 00:04:56,727 --> 00:04:59,647 There were several others, which I turned down. 73 00:05:01,397 --> 00:05:03,985 Kind of out of touch with the media 74 00:05:04,027 --> 00:05:05,695 and the media culture. 75 00:05:05,736 --> 00:05:08,488 And I've been living outside the United States 76 00:05:08,530 --> 00:05:11,074 for the last 36 years. 77 00:05:12,408 --> 00:05:13,869 That's where I'm comfortable. 78 00:05:20,123 --> 00:05:25,087 In 1967, I was 16, 17 years old. 79 00:05:25,128 --> 00:05:28,090 Started to hitchhike towards New York City. 80 00:05:30,342 --> 00:05:34,262 It was the summer, Lower East Side. 81 00:05:34,304 --> 00:05:39,434 The pot and psychedelic cult. They reject square society, 82 00:05:39,476 --> 00:05:40,853 and claim they can build a better one. 83 00:05:40,895 --> 00:05:44,313 Power to the people! 84 00:05:44,355 --> 00:05:47,733 Power to the people! 85 00:05:47,774 --> 00:05:49,235 It was heady times. 86 00:05:49,276 --> 00:05:52,613 People were left wing, they were certainly anti-war. 87 00:05:54,699 --> 00:05:58,578 People were very much aware of the Civil Rights movement. 88 00:05:58,619 --> 00:06:01,330 Feminism was coming into its own. 89 00:06:01,372 --> 00:06:05,457 You had the beginning of the Gay Pride Movement. 90 00:06:05,499 --> 00:06:09,254 I was living on 10th Street just off Avenue A. 91 00:06:09,295 --> 00:06:10,797 It was a railroad apartment. 92 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,216 It had the bathtub in the kitchen. 93 00:06:14,258 --> 00:06:16,469 I worked at Book Masters, 94 00:06:16,511 --> 00:06:19,347 a chain of bookstores that really prided itself 95 00:06:19,389 --> 00:06:21,934 on being into whatever was hip. 96 00:06:21,975 --> 00:06:25,352 Book signings by Salvador Dalí, 97 00:06:25,394 --> 00:06:28,188 Andy Warhol and the Velvet Underground, 98 00:06:28,230 --> 00:06:31,816 Edward Gorey, Richard Avedon, the photographer. 99 00:06:31,858 --> 00:06:33,902 It was very exciting. 100 00:06:33,944 --> 00:06:38,490 I can remember a phone call that I got from the manager, 101 00:06:38,532 --> 00:06:40,700 and he said, "The police are on the way. 102 00:06:40,742 --> 00:06:46,123 "We've just been busted for selling 'Zap Comix No. 4' 103 00:06:46,164 --> 00:06:49,917 "and Ed Sanders' 'Fuck You/ a magazine of the arts.' 104 00:06:49,959 --> 00:06:52,629 "Get 'em off the shelf, the cops are on the way." 105 00:06:52,670 --> 00:06:54,464 At that point in time, 106 00:06:54,505 --> 00:06:57,425 some of the raunchiest bookstores in the world 107 00:06:57,467 --> 00:06:58,801 were on Times Square. 108 00:06:58,842 --> 00:07:02,012 X-rated pornography shops. 109 00:07:02,054 --> 00:07:03,639 The police couldn't care less. 110 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,516 They were interested in the counterculture. 111 00:07:06,558 --> 00:07:08,768 So that was a real eye-opener 112 00:07:08,810 --> 00:07:13,440 in terms of the morals squad of the police department. 113 00:07:13,482 --> 00:07:16,109 I was in the process of forming opinions 114 00:07:16,151 --> 00:07:19,736 about politics, about myself. 115 00:07:19,778 --> 00:07:22,490 I went to two or three 116 00:07:22,531 --> 00:07:25,700 of the marches on Washington, the Moratorium. 117 00:07:25,742 --> 00:07:29,872 I felt that I was really involved in something larger than myself. 118 00:07:29,914 --> 00:07:31,707 A cultural sea-change. 119 00:07:31,749 --> 00:07:35,502 We were going to move from irresponsible power 120 00:07:35,543 --> 00:07:39,840 in the hands of a few old white men 121 00:07:39,881 --> 00:07:42,968 to a much fairer society 122 00:07:43,010 --> 00:07:46,929 where people of color and women had equal opportunity. 123 00:07:46,971 --> 00:07:50,767 Where we didn't make wars of choice 124 00:07:50,809 --> 00:07:54,436 halfway around the world that didn't make any sense. 125 00:07:56,396 --> 00:07:59,692 I was increasingly angry about the war. 126 00:07:59,733 --> 00:08:01,901 The increasing fatalities 127 00:08:01,943 --> 00:08:04,696 on both the Vietnamese side and the American side, 128 00:08:04,737 --> 00:08:08,075 which I thought was a complete and utter waste. 129 00:08:08,117 --> 00:08:12,954 Peaceful demonstrations started to become more and more violent. 130 00:08:12,996 --> 00:08:16,875 The days of putting flowers into the barrels of rifles 131 00:08:16,916 --> 00:08:18,626 was rapidly coming to an end. 132 00:08:18,668 --> 00:08:21,253 Up until this time, there wasn't a real radical movement. 133 00:08:21,294 --> 00:08:23,088 There was a movement of the mouth. 134 00:08:23,130 --> 00:08:26,134 I believe that it's now time for new tactics in the anti-war movement. 135 00:08:26,176 --> 00:08:28,093 Mass demonstrations are ineffective 136 00:08:28,135 --> 00:08:31,471 because power is so removed from the people. 137 00:08:31,513 --> 00:08:33,057 People became impatient. 138 00:08:33,098 --> 00:08:36,601 And demonstrators came to demonstrations 139 00:08:36,643 --> 00:08:40,604 more and more with the intention of provoking violence. 140 00:08:40,646 --> 00:08:44,484 So you move from protest to armed conflict. 141 00:08:44,526 --> 00:08:46,944 Those pigs in Washington, 142 00:08:46,986 --> 00:08:51,282 every time they try to devour one warrior, 143 00:08:51,323 --> 00:08:53,202 we're gonna take our fists 144 00:08:53,244 --> 00:08:54,869 and put it right into their fat gut. 145 00:08:54,910 --> 00:08:58,288 Washington police used tear gas to drive them away, 146 00:08:58,329 --> 00:08:59,831 and arrests were made. 147 00:08:59,873 --> 00:09:02,752 Attorney General John Mitchell characterized this instance 148 00:09:02,793 --> 00:09:04,794 as evidence of the violent nature 149 00:09:04,836 --> 00:09:07,881 of the Moratorium protest. 150 00:09:07,923 --> 00:09:12,303 "The Village Voice" announced that there was going to be 151 00:09:12,344 --> 00:09:15,679 a "Yip-in" at Grand Central Station. 152 00:09:15,721 --> 00:09:18,849 A celebration of life. It was enormous. 153 00:09:18,891 --> 00:09:22,978 And people were dancing, and bongo drums, 154 00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:27,066 and singing, and people were smoking dope openly. 155 00:09:27,108 --> 00:09:30,403 Really in your face to the establishment. 156 00:09:30,445 --> 00:09:34,281 Something exciting, something possibly dangerous was happening. 157 00:09:34,322 --> 00:09:37,575 There was a police presence. 158 00:09:37,617 --> 00:09:42,789 Just before midnight, two young men climbed up 159 00:09:42,830 --> 00:09:44,958 onto the information desk 160 00:09:44,999 --> 00:09:47,335 that's in the middle of Grand Central Station... 161 00:09:47,376 --> 00:09:48,962 and there's a clock above it... 162 00:09:49,003 --> 00:09:51,797 and they ripped the hands from the clock. 163 00:09:51,838 --> 00:09:55,217 Why? I don't know. I suspect that they were stoned. 164 00:09:55,259 --> 00:09:59,554 But that was a signal for the police to intervene. 165 00:09:59,596 --> 00:10:03,976 They did. And it turned very bloody very, very quickly. 166 00:10:04,017 --> 00:10:05,978 Police came in swinging batons, 167 00:10:06,019 --> 00:10:07,854 they were absolutely indiscriminate. 168 00:10:07,896 --> 00:10:10,774 At one point, I watched a girl 169 00:10:10,815 --> 00:10:14,485 having to run the gauntlet of police with batons. 170 00:10:14,526 --> 00:10:17,280 I don't remember how many were arrested, 171 00:10:17,322 --> 00:10:20,741 but it was over 100, and a lot of people were beaten. 172 00:10:20,783 --> 00:10:23,619 But it was a classic police riot. 173 00:10:23,661 --> 00:10:25,330 I was sickened by it. 174 00:10:25,371 --> 00:10:28,874 I was angry, I was frightened. 175 00:10:28,916 --> 00:10:35,339 I felt very strongly that change needed to happen. 176 00:10:35,380 --> 00:10:38,466 I thought the government was out of control. 177 00:10:43,054 --> 00:10:44,722 I was going to write. 178 00:10:44,764 --> 00:10:48,101 I was going to turn my hand at writing "The Anarchist Cookbook." 179 00:10:59,862 --> 00:11:02,447 I had become very insular. 180 00:11:02,489 --> 00:11:05,784 It was a project that I was engaged in 181 00:11:05,826 --> 00:11:08,703 entirely by myself. 182 00:11:08,744 --> 00:11:11,539 I didn't talk about writing the book with anyone. 183 00:11:11,580 --> 00:11:12,915 Nobody knew. 184 00:11:12,957 --> 00:11:16,252 I started out by locating 185 00:11:16,294 --> 00:11:20,173 the section of the library that had military manuals. 186 00:11:20,215 --> 00:11:24,552 Army, Marine Corps, special forces. 187 00:11:24,593 --> 00:11:26,346 The shelf wasn't locked. 188 00:11:26,388 --> 00:11:28,846 I mean, it wasn't a rare book room 189 00:11:28,888 --> 00:11:31,350 where you had to get the librarian to unlock it. 190 00:11:31,392 --> 00:11:34,144 They were just there on the shelf, and I took them down. 191 00:11:34,186 --> 00:11:39,691 The information about explosives 192 00:11:39,733 --> 00:11:44,279 came primarily from "Explosives" and "Boobytraps." 193 00:11:44,321 --> 00:11:47,406 One was called "Escape and Evasion." 194 00:11:47,447 --> 00:11:49,450 Things on sabotage. 195 00:11:49,491 --> 00:11:55,080 The diagrams in the book, some of them came from manuals. 196 00:11:55,121 --> 00:11:57,666 Others, I drew myself. 197 00:11:59,419 --> 00:12:04,256 I took about three and a half, maybe four months to write it. 198 00:12:06,049 --> 00:12:09,594 I wrote it in solitude. 199 00:12:09,635 --> 00:12:14,598 No one read the manuscript before it went to the publisher. 200 00:12:21,064 --> 00:12:23,315 So your goal was what? 201 00:12:23,357 --> 00:12:27,069 To take what the military had, 202 00:12:27,111 --> 00:12:29,738 and what other radical groups had, 203 00:12:29,780 --> 00:12:32,907 and put it into the common domain 204 00:12:32,949 --> 00:12:36,120 so that it was accessible to everyone. 205 00:12:36,161 --> 00:12:40,623 Violent groups... the Weathermen being one, 206 00:12:40,664 --> 00:12:42,708 the government being another... 207 00:12:42,750 --> 00:12:46,629 have access to this information. 208 00:12:46,670 --> 00:12:48,880 And are using it. 209 00:12:48,922 --> 00:12:52,802 Therefore, why shouldn't the rest of us 210 00:12:52,843 --> 00:12:56,139 also have that information? 211 00:12:56,180 --> 00:13:01,143 And I still sort of question that. 212 00:13:01,184 --> 00:13:05,814 That paradox. Who controls the information? 213 00:13:05,855 --> 00:13:08,649 I mean, whose hands should it be in? 214 00:13:12,529 --> 00:13:14,323 I mean, I'm told 215 00:13:14,364 --> 00:13:20,203 that the book has a million, half, two million copies in print. 216 00:13:20,245 --> 00:13:23,456 I have no idea, really, 217 00:13:23,498 --> 00:13:28,042 what the vast majority of those people have done with the book. 218 00:13:28,084 --> 00:13:32,047 I suspect very, very few have read it cover to cover. 219 00:13:32,089 --> 00:13:35,008 And I suspect even fewer 220 00:13:35,049 --> 00:13:38,220 have actually read these passages. 221 00:13:38,262 --> 00:13:41,722 I think people are drawn to the recipes. 222 00:13:41,764 --> 00:13:45,058 Really, you don't think people are drawn in 223 00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:51,606 by your perspective and your voice and inspired? 224 00:13:54,901 --> 00:13:56,821 Um... I guess, 225 00:13:56,863 --> 00:13:59,614 other people would be better judges of that than I am. 226 00:13:59,656 --> 00:14:02,534 I'm not inspired by it. 227 00:14:04,494 --> 00:14:07,206 "I feel very strongly that every person should be armed 228 00:14:07,247 --> 00:14:10,124 "and that he or she should be prepared for the worst. 229 00:14:10,166 --> 00:14:12,377 "There's no justice left in the system. 230 00:14:12,418 --> 00:14:14,212 "The only real justice is 231 00:14:14,253 --> 00:14:16,507 "that which the individual creates themself, 232 00:14:16,549 --> 00:14:19,632 "and the individual is helpless without a gun. 233 00:14:19,674 --> 00:14:22,093 "This may sound like the dogma expounded 234 00:14:22,135 --> 00:14:27,058 "by radical right-wing groups like the Minutemen, it is. 235 00:14:27,099 --> 00:14:28,933 "The time has passed for demonstrations 236 00:14:28,975 --> 00:14:32,020 "and pseudo revolutionaries and students to occupy the political scene. 237 00:14:32,062 --> 00:14:33,981 "The time is for a mass uprising, 238 00:14:34,023 --> 00:14:37,900 "armed with single-minded deadly intolerance." 239 00:14:39,068 --> 00:14:43,365 Yeah, well, it's, um... 240 00:14:43,407 --> 00:14:46,200 it's over-the-top exaggerated rhetoric. 241 00:14:46,242 --> 00:14:47,743 Um... 242 00:14:52,916 --> 00:14:54,708 Yeah. 243 00:14:57,877 --> 00:15:01,465 "This chapter is going to kill and maim more people than all the rest put together 244 00:15:01,507 --> 00:15:04,467 "because people just refuse to take things seriously." 245 00:15:08,930 --> 00:15:11,725 "Explosives, if used with care 246 00:15:11,767 --> 00:15:13,560 "and all the necessary precautions, 247 00:15:13,602 --> 00:15:15,144 "are one of the greatest tools 248 00:15:15,186 --> 00:15:17,062 "any liberation movement can have. 249 00:15:17,104 --> 00:15:20,983 "It will confuse the enemy, cause destruction and death 250 00:15:21,025 --> 00:15:23,860 "with power and the technology of the people." 251 00:15:26,071 --> 00:15:30,867 But language about maiming people does seem 252 00:15:30,909 --> 00:15:35,413 that you are aware 253 00:15:35,455 --> 00:15:39,875 that the book will be used to commit acts of violence? 254 00:15:48,842 --> 00:15:50,803 I think... 255 00:15:57,934 --> 00:15:59,436 Um... 256 00:16:02,606 --> 00:16:04,691 I think I'm aware 257 00:16:04,732 --> 00:16:07,319 that there is certainly that possibility. 258 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,905 I think that's in... 259 00:16:10,947 --> 00:16:12,823 That's inherent 260 00:16:12,864 --> 00:16:17,703 in the three paragraphs that I've just read. 261 00:16:17,744 --> 00:16:18,829 Um... 262 00:16:25,794 --> 00:16:27,963 "Allow the fear, and the loneliness, and the hatred 263 00:16:28,005 --> 00:16:29,423 "to build up inside you, 264 00:16:29,465 --> 00:16:31,592 "allow your passions to fertilize 265 00:16:31,634 --> 00:16:33,759 "the seeds of constructive revolution. 266 00:16:33,801 --> 00:16:35,428 "Allow your love of freedom 267 00:16:35,470 --> 00:16:39,265 "to overcome the false values placed on human life. 268 00:16:39,307 --> 00:16:41,267 "Freedom is based on respect, 269 00:16:41,309 --> 00:16:46,105 "and respect must be earned by the spilling of blood." 270 00:16:49,984 --> 00:16:52,777 I can remember writing that. 271 00:16:52,819 --> 00:16:57,782 And I remember thinking that is a cool turn of phrase. 272 00:16:57,824 --> 00:17:01,370 I was pleased with that at the time. 273 00:17:01,411 --> 00:17:04,707 Now I think it's absolute rubbish. 274 00:17:04,748 --> 00:17:07,459 But at the time it sounded really good to me. 275 00:17:08,918 --> 00:17:13,631 I can see that people might 276 00:17:13,673 --> 00:17:20,429 read portions of this book and... 277 00:17:25,059 --> 00:17:28,102 find justification 278 00:17:28,144 --> 00:17:35,109 for doing very destructive and evil things. 279 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:45,035 And that fills me with remorse. 280 00:17:49,331 --> 00:17:52,000 Which is different than regret. 281 00:17:57,506 --> 00:18:01,051 What... how would you explain that difference? 282 00:18:07,181 --> 00:18:09,183 I think maybe we're at that point 283 00:18:09,225 --> 00:18:11,102 now we're playing with words. 284 00:18:11,143 --> 00:18:13,437 I'll just let it stand. 285 00:18:13,478 --> 00:18:18,777 That if that has been the case, and I think it probably has, 286 00:18:18,818 --> 00:18:20,737 it fills me with remorse. 287 00:18:22,987 --> 00:18:25,825 We're back, and we're talking about censorship, 288 00:18:25,866 --> 00:18:28,159 and pornography, and all kinds of fun things. 289 00:18:28,201 --> 00:18:30,828 And with us is Lyle Stuart, 290 00:18:30,869 --> 00:18:33,998 he's president of the Lyle Stuart Publishing Company. 291 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:35,834 How did you go about finding a publisher? 292 00:18:35,875 --> 00:18:38,837 Wrote a query letter, which I sent out 293 00:18:38,877 --> 00:18:42,047 to over 30 different publishers. 294 00:18:42,089 --> 00:18:45,718 Lyle came back, simple, one line, 295 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,136 "Let's see the manuscript." 296 00:18:47,177 --> 00:18:50,179 I knew Lyle Stuart's books. 297 00:18:50,221 --> 00:18:52,891 He had a reputation for publishing 298 00:18:52,933 --> 00:18:54,852 books that were kind of on the edge. 299 00:18:54,893 --> 00:18:57,479 I was awed by him. 300 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,606 Here was this sort of wild man 301 00:18:59,648 --> 00:19:02,276 that would publish anything at all. 302 00:19:02,318 --> 00:19:05,779 Of course, the thing about so-called pornography 303 00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:07,362 and obscenity laws is that 304 00:19:07,404 --> 00:19:10,158 our standards are dynamic. They're always changing. 305 00:19:10,199 --> 00:19:12,744 The thing that would have shocked us tens years ago 306 00:19:12,786 --> 00:19:14,036 we don't even look at today. 307 00:19:14,078 --> 00:19:16,538 He wasn't intimidated by anybody. 308 00:19:16,580 --> 00:19:20,794 I'd had 30-plus rejections and I was really quite excited 309 00:19:20,836 --> 00:19:23,420 that the book was going to be published. 310 00:19:23,462 --> 00:19:26,881 Once it was published, 311 00:19:26,922 --> 00:19:30,511 there was just an explosion of publicity. 312 00:19:32,053 --> 00:19:38,352 There was also a barrage of negative commentary. 313 00:19:38,393 --> 00:19:42,188 I'd recognized that it would create controversy. 314 00:19:42,228 --> 00:19:44,606 I grossly underestimated 315 00:19:44,648 --> 00:19:47,151 the controversy it would provoke. 316 00:19:47,193 --> 00:19:50,321 The gist was that it should not have been published 317 00:19:50,363 --> 00:19:52,113 because it was dangerous. 318 00:19:57,370 --> 00:20:00,497 They called it the most irresponsible publishing event 319 00:20:00,539 --> 00:20:03,123 of the decade or century, I don't know what. 320 00:20:04,625 --> 00:20:09,129 Got a couple of anonymous letters threatening to kill me. 321 00:20:09,171 --> 00:20:12,257 It worried me. 322 00:20:12,299 --> 00:20:15,970 It was almost like something that was getting out of hand. 323 00:20:16,012 --> 00:20:19,640 And what did you do? 324 00:20:19,682 --> 00:20:21,474 Bought a gun. 325 00:20:21,516 --> 00:20:25,521 You didn't show the note to the police or... 326 00:20:25,563 --> 00:20:29,065 No. I thought it would be ironic 327 00:20:29,106 --> 00:20:31,860 for the author of "The Anarchist Cookbook" 328 00:20:31,902 --> 00:20:37,990 to go to the police with a death threat. 329 00:20:38,032 --> 00:20:40,659 So, I didn't... No, I didn't go to the police. 330 00:20:40,701 --> 00:20:45,121 That was that sort of pseudo-celebrity period. 331 00:20:45,163 --> 00:20:47,750 Everybody wanted to interview me. 332 00:20:47,791 --> 00:20:50,669 And Lyle had organized a press conference 333 00:20:50,711 --> 00:20:55,465 at the Hotel Americana, invited all sorts of reporters 334 00:20:55,507 --> 00:20:58,385 and television stations. 335 00:20:58,426 --> 00:21:00,971 About midway through the press conference 336 00:21:01,012 --> 00:21:03,264 someone threw a smoke bomb. 337 00:21:03,305 --> 00:21:04,891 And it was spluttering and smoking, 338 00:21:04,933 --> 00:21:09,186 and everybody dived for cover, including myself. 339 00:21:09,228 --> 00:21:13,566 But what was interesting was that when the smoke cleared, 340 00:21:13,608 --> 00:21:15,735 the people that hadn't dived for cover 341 00:21:15,777 --> 00:21:19,655 were Lyle Stuart and his secretary. 342 00:21:19,697 --> 00:21:21,281 Lyle said afterwards 343 00:21:21,322 --> 00:21:23,825 that he thought it was a rival anarchist 344 00:21:23,867 --> 00:21:27,746 protesting the commercialization of the cookbook. 345 00:21:27,788 --> 00:21:30,373 My hunch is that it was a publicity stunt. 346 00:21:30,415 --> 00:21:33,251 Probably designed by Lyle himself. 347 00:21:38,172 --> 00:21:41,300 I was just way out of my depth. 348 00:21:41,341 --> 00:21:43,260 I think I was feeling uncomfortable with 349 00:21:43,302 --> 00:21:45,554 some of the questions that I was being asked. 350 00:21:45,596 --> 00:21:51,435 Whether it was a correct thing to do, 351 00:21:51,477 --> 00:21:53,353 to put this kind of information 352 00:21:53,395 --> 00:21:57,106 into the hands of people 353 00:21:57,148 --> 00:22:03,195 who might hurt themselves or others? 354 00:22:03,237 --> 00:22:08,075 I did not try every recipe in the book. 355 00:22:08,117 --> 00:22:10,161 I have never made a bomb. 356 00:22:10,202 --> 00:22:13,039 I've never made LSD in my kitchen. 357 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,834 I didn't try any of the explosives recipes or... 358 00:22:16,875 --> 00:22:19,628 I didn't try any of those. 359 00:22:19,670 --> 00:22:25,676 The portion of the book that was increasingly difficult to justify 360 00:22:25,717 --> 00:22:32,682 was the part on explosives and bomb-making. 361 00:22:33,975 --> 00:22:36,393 Increasingly I was feeling that 362 00:22:36,435 --> 00:22:38,354 that wasn't me. 363 00:22:38,395 --> 00:22:41,231 And what did you do about that? 364 00:22:41,273 --> 00:22:42,399 Um... 365 00:22:46,863 --> 00:22:48,489 Well, um... 366 00:22:50,448 --> 00:22:51,993 I tried to ignore the fact... 367 00:22:52,035 --> 00:22:54,536 I mean, basically, 368 00:22:54,577 --> 00:22:57,497 I just put it aside. I didn't think about it. 369 00:22:59,207 --> 00:23:06,172 I think it's quite hard to contradict something 370 00:23:06,214 --> 00:23:10,468 that has gone out into print with my name on it, 371 00:23:10,510 --> 00:23:15,056 and there's 100,000, 200,000, a million copies, I don't know. 372 00:23:15,097 --> 00:23:18,432 It's hard to come out and say, "I don't agree with this." 373 00:23:18,474 --> 00:23:19,768 And then you think, 374 00:23:19,810 --> 00:23:21,478 "Well, why did you write it in the first place?" 375 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,397 You know, "Why didn't you think about it?" 376 00:23:23,438 --> 00:23:27,108 So I'm wrestling with that during this time. 377 00:23:27,149 --> 00:23:32,030 But you did speak about it in court in 1973? 378 00:23:32,072 --> 00:23:34,699 Three or four, yeah. Yeah. 379 00:23:34,741 --> 00:23:37,702 In a Denver courtroom, 380 00:23:37,744 --> 00:23:41,581 Lyle Stuart and I were being sued for copyright violation. 381 00:23:41,622 --> 00:23:45,667 The book they said that the copyright had been violated on 382 00:23:45,709 --> 00:23:48,088 was "150 Questions For a Guerrilla." 383 00:23:48,129 --> 00:23:52,424 They wanted to show that I had basically plagiarized this book. 384 00:23:52,465 --> 00:23:55,175 And your role in the trial was to... 385 00:23:55,217 --> 00:23:58,722 Oh, I was on the witness stand for most of the day. 386 00:23:58,764 --> 00:24:02,225 The plaintiff's lawyer would ask a question, 387 00:24:02,266 --> 00:24:03,935 I would answer the question, and then I would say, 388 00:24:03,976 --> 00:24:06,438 "and furthermore, da-da, da-da, da-da." 389 00:24:06,479 --> 00:24:09,440 He asked me about Bangalore torpedoes. 390 00:24:09,481 --> 00:24:12,400 A kind of explosive device. 391 00:24:12,442 --> 00:24:14,027 So I gave him chapter and verse. 392 00:24:14,069 --> 00:24:18,449 I came across as credible. There had been a huge change 393 00:24:18,490 --> 00:24:21,034 from the New York City Bill Powell, 394 00:24:21,076 --> 00:24:22,535 who went to promote the book, 395 00:24:22,577 --> 00:24:26,082 and the individual who showed up in Denver. 396 00:24:26,124 --> 00:24:28,625 The judge ruled from the bench 397 00:24:28,666 --> 00:24:30,918 and threw the plaintiff's case out. 398 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,671 And what was your reaction to the outcome of the case? 399 00:24:33,713 --> 00:24:37,050 Oh, I was delighted. I was delighted, yeah. 400 00:24:37,092 --> 00:24:40,302 So you don't recall during that period thinking, 401 00:24:40,343 --> 00:24:42,973 "Why am I defending this book that I don't even agree with?" 402 00:24:43,014 --> 00:24:44,849 No, no, it... 403 00:24:44,891 --> 00:24:47,558 I wasn't defending the book or the content. 404 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,936 The focus was on winning the case. 405 00:24:49,978 --> 00:24:53,356 I thought the plaintiff in this case 406 00:24:53,398 --> 00:24:55,943 was out to make a quick buck at my expense. 407 00:24:55,985 --> 00:24:59,695 There needed to be a... 408 00:24:59,737 --> 00:25:01,991 you know, a strong defense. 409 00:25:02,032 --> 00:25:03,700 During the '70s, 410 00:25:03,742 --> 00:25:05,827 you could talk about what you did 411 00:25:05,868 --> 00:25:08,244 to distance yourself from the book. 412 00:25:08,286 --> 00:25:10,623 Did you do anything to distance yourself from the book? 413 00:25:10,665 --> 00:25:12,249 Not publicly. 414 00:25:12,291 --> 00:25:16,586 I mean, I didn't put out any public statements in the '70s. 415 00:25:16,628 --> 00:25:19,757 I became a father. That was huge. 416 00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:23,468 I went through confirmation as an Anglican. 417 00:25:23,510 --> 00:25:27,429 So there were a number of things that were going on for me, 418 00:25:27,471 --> 00:25:29,850 emotionally, spiritually, 419 00:25:29,891 --> 00:25:32,559 but I didn't do anything during that time 420 00:25:32,601 --> 00:25:35,521 to publicly distance myself. 421 00:25:35,562 --> 00:25:38,942 Primarily because the book had sort of dropped off. 422 00:25:38,984 --> 00:25:42,444 Sales were way down. There was no media attention. 423 00:25:42,486 --> 00:25:44,071 And I thought it was just going to go 424 00:25:44,113 --> 00:25:47,241 and die a quiet death on its own. 425 00:25:47,282 --> 00:25:50,618 I didn't spend much time thinking about "The Anarchist Cookbook" 426 00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:53,329 to be really frank with you, yeah. 427 00:25:53,371 --> 00:25:56,125 I had decided that I wanted to be a teacher. 428 00:25:56,167 --> 00:25:58,627 And particularly I wanted to work with 429 00:25:58,669 --> 00:26:00,962 kids with emotional learning needs. 430 00:26:01,004 --> 00:26:03,797 Hyperactivity, attention deficit disorder. 431 00:26:03,839 --> 00:26:08,677 I can recall the first day. I went into the classroom... 432 00:26:08,719 --> 00:26:11,930 It was a treatment center for children 433 00:26:11,972 --> 00:26:15,852 who had been taken away from their families for abuse, 434 00:26:15,894 --> 00:26:17,477 children that were neglected. 435 00:26:17,519 --> 00:26:19,771 The kids had basically been abandoned. 436 00:26:19,813 --> 00:26:24,068 So, I had 12... 11-year-old boys 437 00:26:24,109 --> 00:26:29,488 who had all sorts of issues. 438 00:26:29,530 --> 00:26:30,990 In some respects, 439 00:26:31,032 --> 00:26:35,369 I think I saw some of myself in these kids. 440 00:26:35,411 --> 00:26:37,163 I wanted to be there for them. 441 00:26:42,501 --> 00:26:46,129 I was born in the United States. I was born on Long Island. 442 00:26:46,171 --> 00:26:48,798 My dad worked for the United Nations, 443 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,385 the spokesman for the Secretary General. 444 00:26:51,427 --> 00:26:56,639 And when I was about two, he was transferred to Britain, 445 00:26:56,681 --> 00:26:59,017 which is why I sound the way that I do. 446 00:27:00,351 --> 00:27:02,436 Soon after we arrived in England, 447 00:27:02,477 --> 00:27:04,688 my dad put my name on the waiting list 448 00:27:04,730 --> 00:27:08,109 for one of the leading boys schools. 449 00:27:08,150 --> 00:27:09,819 And he really had a dream, I think, 450 00:27:09,861 --> 00:27:11,946 of me going to Cambridge. 451 00:27:11,987 --> 00:27:15,199 We would go to Cambridge on holidays 452 00:27:15,241 --> 00:27:18,660 and he would point to King's College chapel. 453 00:27:18,702 --> 00:27:22,247 And he would say, "This is where I want you to go to University." 454 00:27:22,289 --> 00:27:24,415 Kind of a dream for me, 455 00:27:24,457 --> 00:27:28,629 which, needless to say, I didn't fulfill. 456 00:27:28,670 --> 00:27:31,756 And then, when I was about 11 or 12, 457 00:27:31,798 --> 00:27:34,259 my dad was transferred back to New York. 458 00:27:34,301 --> 00:27:38,305 It would be fair to say that I was a royal headache to my parents. 459 00:27:38,346 --> 00:27:40,806 I didn't see the relevance of school. 460 00:27:40,847 --> 00:27:43,016 I had run-ins with the law, 461 00:27:43,058 --> 00:27:45,102 and at that point, Mom and Dad said 462 00:27:45,144 --> 00:27:47,479 they were going to send me to boarding school. 463 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,066 Which, was okay for the first year. 464 00:27:51,108 --> 00:27:52,525 Second year was difficult. 465 00:27:52,567 --> 00:27:54,361 I didn't make it through the year. 466 00:27:54,402 --> 00:27:57,156 I was expelled. 467 00:27:57,197 --> 00:28:00,325 Had to do with vodka and marijuana, 468 00:28:00,366 --> 00:28:04,203 and gently pushing a teacher's car into a... 469 00:28:04,245 --> 00:28:06,789 a ravine would be an exaggeration. 470 00:28:06,831 --> 00:28:09,167 It was a sort of incline. 471 00:28:09,208 --> 00:28:15,714 And the car rolled gracefully into a tree. 472 00:28:17,465 --> 00:28:20,510 I decided at that point that I would make my exit 473 00:28:20,551 --> 00:28:22,095 towards New York City. 474 00:28:22,137 --> 00:28:23,972 I went to work. 475 00:28:24,014 --> 00:28:27,225 The impetus for writing the book 476 00:28:27,267 --> 00:28:30,520 was a combination of a number of different things. 477 00:28:30,561 --> 00:28:33,315 There was some genuine anger. 478 00:28:33,357 --> 00:28:37,276 I think I did want to publish. 479 00:28:37,318 --> 00:28:41,112 I wanted to be a writer and I wanted to publish. 480 00:28:41,154 --> 00:28:44,741 I told my father after the book was published. 481 00:28:44,783 --> 00:28:46,243 Before it came out, 482 00:28:46,285 --> 00:28:47,953 but after I had signed the contract. 483 00:28:47,995 --> 00:28:50,705 It was Easter Sunday. 484 00:28:50,746 --> 00:28:54,335 I went out to White Plains to have Sunday lunch. 485 00:28:54,377 --> 00:28:56,585 My dad and I at that point in time 486 00:28:56,627 --> 00:28:58,171 were sort of estranged. 487 00:28:58,213 --> 00:29:01,799 It was just easier when I wasn't fulfilling his aspirations 488 00:29:01,841 --> 00:29:04,802 to maintain a distance from him. 489 00:29:04,844 --> 00:29:06,637 Initially he was quite excited 490 00:29:06,679 --> 00:29:09,056 by the idea that I'd published a book. 491 00:29:09,097 --> 00:29:12,101 I think his excitement diminished 492 00:29:12,143 --> 00:29:14,269 when he learned about what the content was. 493 00:29:16,146 --> 00:29:20,067 Having said that, he was very clear 494 00:29:20,108 --> 00:29:24,487 that he respected my right to express it. 495 00:29:24,529 --> 00:29:27,156 He just didn't have to agree with it himself. 496 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,477 I hope they like onions. 497 00:29:58,519 --> 00:29:59,812 I wonder. 498 00:29:59,854 --> 00:30:02,522 I mean, it's a bit of a disaster if they don't. 499 00:30:03,941 --> 00:30:06,861 We both were working at a school 500 00:30:06,903 --> 00:30:12,407 for emotionally disturbed and learning disabled children. 501 00:30:12,449 --> 00:30:15,494 Ochan was in the elementary school, in second grade 502 00:30:15,535 --> 00:30:16,912 as a student teacher, 503 00:30:16,954 --> 00:30:18,663 I was teaching in the high school. 504 00:30:18,705 --> 00:30:25,629 In Bill's mother's attic, there used to be a big box 505 00:30:25,670 --> 00:30:28,798 of newspaper clippings, and cuttings, 506 00:30:28,839 --> 00:30:33,136 and articles about Bill. 507 00:30:33,177 --> 00:30:36,764 I don't think I even had a copy of the book at that point in time. 508 00:30:36,806 --> 00:30:38,390 I think your mother did. 509 00:30:38,432 --> 00:30:41,727 Yeah, my mother still does have a copy of it. 510 00:30:41,769 --> 00:30:44,314 -Um... -That's kind of funny. 511 00:30:44,355 --> 00:30:46,815 Yes. Yes, it is. 512 00:30:46,856 --> 00:30:52,404 I think I was able to rationalize it as a young adult, 513 00:30:52,446 --> 00:30:54,281 saying, "Okay, I can understand this 514 00:30:54,323 --> 00:30:56,740 as part of someone's past." 515 00:30:56,782 --> 00:30:58,659 Adolescent past. 516 00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:02,164 I know Bill must have been a very angry person 517 00:31:02,205 --> 00:31:03,915 as he was growing up. 518 00:31:03,957 --> 00:31:06,000 But I didn't see that anger 519 00:31:06,041 --> 00:31:08,835 that is so obviously a part of that book. 520 00:31:08,876 --> 00:31:12,756 That was never a part of the Bill that I had met. 521 00:31:12,798 --> 00:31:16,301 Sometimes, when you're an adolescent, you do dumb things. 522 00:31:16,343 --> 00:31:19,555 Not all of them put it into print, though. 523 00:31:19,596 --> 00:31:20,931 That's... 524 00:31:22,557 --> 00:31:24,934 Okay. 525 00:31:37,947 --> 00:31:40,533 The reason that we chose to show this to you 526 00:31:40,574 --> 00:31:42,493 and this point in the workshop 527 00:31:42,535 --> 00:31:45,745 is if we're not paying attention to something, 528 00:31:45,787 --> 00:31:47,831 it's easy to miss it. 529 00:31:47,873 --> 00:31:50,124 My wife and I travel extensively 530 00:31:50,166 --> 00:31:51,625 to international schools 531 00:31:51,667 --> 00:31:54,712 working with teachers to become more inclusive 532 00:31:54,753 --> 00:31:57,007 of children who learn differently. 533 00:31:57,049 --> 00:31:59,175 In my last school, my teachers, 534 00:31:59,217 --> 00:32:01,553 well, none of them really understood 535 00:32:01,594 --> 00:32:05,097 uh, my learning disability. 536 00:32:05,139 --> 00:32:08,308 As soon as they put the question up on the board they'd say, 537 00:32:08,350 --> 00:32:10,519 "Okay, everyone else has got it, why haven't you got it?" 538 00:32:10,561 --> 00:32:12,396 Just, the pressure. 539 00:32:12,437 --> 00:32:16,067 The pressure and the stress does not help you. 540 00:32:16,108 --> 00:32:18,776 Kids that, if the conditions are right, 541 00:32:18,818 --> 00:32:21,738 do turn to violence. 542 00:32:21,779 --> 00:32:24,991 Both of you have had some learning support 543 00:32:25,033 --> 00:32:26,950 here at Hong Kong Academy. 544 00:32:26,992 --> 00:32:29,953 Oftentimes when we're talking with students 545 00:32:29,995 --> 00:32:31,455 who are getting learning support, 546 00:32:31,497 --> 00:32:34,375 we don't ask about their strengths. 547 00:32:34,417 --> 00:32:36,502 And I would be very interested. 548 00:32:36,544 --> 00:32:38,045 What strengths do you have? 549 00:32:38,087 --> 00:32:40,590 That you feel pretty good about, you feel proud about. 550 00:32:40,631 --> 00:32:44,217 Being the author of "The Anarchist Cookbook," 551 00:32:44,259 --> 00:32:47,512 the irony of my career is not lost on me either. 552 00:32:47,554 --> 00:32:49,764 From "The Anarchist Cookbook" 553 00:32:49,805 --> 00:32:52,642 to teaching emotional intelligence. 554 00:32:54,727 --> 00:32:58,314 When was the first time you learned of a connection 555 00:32:58,356 --> 00:33:03,444 between an act of violence and the book. 556 00:33:06,071 --> 00:33:08,365 It was Columbine. 557 00:33:08,407 --> 00:33:09,784 911. 558 00:33:16,206 --> 00:33:17,416 Okay. 559 00:33:17,458 --> 00:33:19,210 The guy was in a black trenchcoat. 560 00:33:19,252 --> 00:33:23,087 Oh, my god... I was under a table 561 00:33:23,129 --> 00:33:26,466 and people were getting shot all around me. 562 00:33:26,507 --> 00:33:31,971 The boys who created the massacre there... 563 00:33:33,389 --> 00:33:36,267 they had a copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook." 564 00:33:39,728 --> 00:33:43,607 I was very upset. And I'm a teacher. 565 00:33:43,649 --> 00:33:46,359 The last thing I would want to do 566 00:33:46,401 --> 00:33:50,155 is to see students hurt or killed. 567 00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:53,366 It was appalling. 568 00:33:53,408 --> 00:33:57,162 How did you learn that the book was associated with Columbine? 569 00:33:57,203 --> 00:34:00,789 I got an email from a friend in the United States 570 00:34:00,831 --> 00:34:03,459 who had seen the film "Bowling for Columbine," 571 00:34:03,501 --> 00:34:05,670 and had seen the book in the film. 572 00:34:05,711 --> 00:34:08,088 The thing is, I have a thing, 573 00:34:08,130 --> 00:34:09,590 it's called "The Anarchist Cookbook." 574 00:34:09,632 --> 00:34:11,842 It shows you how to make bombs and stuff like that in it. 575 00:34:11,883 --> 00:34:14,470 If there's anything that went wrong, they're gonna come to me first. 576 00:34:14,512 --> 00:34:16,430 Just 'cause you owned a copy of the book? 577 00:34:16,472 --> 00:34:18,431 -Just 'cause I own a... -Never made a bomb yourself? 578 00:34:18,473 --> 00:34:21,601 Nope. Oh, as in, like... Oh, I've made 'em. 579 00:34:21,643 --> 00:34:26,690 I imagine you had some kind of visceral reaction? 580 00:34:26,731 --> 00:34:29,734 Yeah, I mean, you... 581 00:34:29,775 --> 00:34:32,987 you, um... 582 00:34:33,029 --> 00:34:35,573 You feel terrible. 583 00:34:35,615 --> 00:34:39,993 You, um, feel sick to your stomach and... 584 00:34:40,035 --> 00:34:43,288 Was your instinct to try to learn more? 585 00:34:43,330 --> 00:34:47,250 There was part of me that didn't want to know anything about it. 586 00:34:47,292 --> 00:34:52,172 Um, and there was part of me that was torn apart about it 587 00:34:52,214 --> 00:34:53,757 that did want to learn more. 588 00:34:53,798 --> 00:34:57,218 At this point, we're in the Internet age, 589 00:34:57,259 --> 00:34:59,135 you know, everyone Googles themself, 590 00:34:59,177 --> 00:35:01,723 and you have a book that you can search. 591 00:35:01,764 --> 00:35:04,726 At any point did you start to look at 592 00:35:04,767 --> 00:35:08,061 whether the book was connected to any other events? 593 00:35:08,102 --> 00:35:11,815 I did do a Google search of "The Anarchist Cookbook." 594 00:35:11,857 --> 00:35:16,527 And there was hundreds and hundreds of entries. 595 00:35:16,569 --> 00:35:20,657 Um, but I didn't... I didn't spend a whole lot of time 596 00:35:20,699 --> 00:35:22,200 going through them. 597 00:35:28,707 --> 00:35:29,916 That was awesome! 598 00:35:31,876 --> 00:35:34,627 This is "The Anarchist Cookbook." 599 00:35:34,669 --> 00:35:36,797 I got this from Amazon. 600 00:35:42,010 --> 00:35:44,929 As you can see before you, "The Anarchist Cookbook." 601 00:35:44,970 --> 00:35:47,641 The information in the book is really good information. 602 00:35:47,683 --> 00:35:49,518 Fire in the hole! 603 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,395 It's usable, it's practical. 604 00:35:54,730 --> 00:35:56,899 They show you how to do this shit. 605 00:36:00,361 --> 00:36:03,029 Somewhere along the line they appropriated William Powell's original title. 606 00:36:03,071 --> 00:36:05,283 You can find things online that call themselves 607 00:36:05,324 --> 00:36:07,786 some version of "The Anarchist Cookbook." 608 00:36:07,827 --> 00:36:08,661 Whoa! 609 00:36:09,662 --> 00:36:11,037 Oh, my god! 610 00:36:13,539 --> 00:36:16,585 This is not just a cookbook, this is a book of ideas. 611 00:36:16,627 --> 00:36:20,296 Hey, guys, today we're going to be playing some more Super Columbine Massacre. 612 00:36:20,337 --> 00:36:23,592 The boys downloaded a page from "The Anarchist Cookbook." 613 00:36:25,927 --> 00:36:27,429 It was clear to me 614 00:36:27,471 --> 00:36:30,139 there had been a resurgence of interest. 615 00:36:30,180 --> 00:36:35,478 So I put out a statement through Amazon. 616 00:36:35,519 --> 00:36:38,938 "I have recently been made aware of several websites 617 00:36:38,980 --> 00:36:41,400 "that focus on 'The Anarchist Cookbook.' 618 00:36:41,442 --> 00:36:43,611 "The central idea of the book was that 619 00:36:43,653 --> 00:36:47,196 "violence is an acceptable means to bring about political change. 620 00:36:47,238 --> 00:36:49,365 "I no longer agree with this. 621 00:36:49,407 --> 00:36:52,910 "I want to state categorically that I am not in agreement 622 00:36:52,952 --> 00:36:55,162 "with the contents of 'The Anarchist Cookbook.' 623 00:36:55,203 --> 00:36:57,748 "I consider it to be a misguided 624 00:36:57,790 --> 00:37:00,126 "and potentially dangerous publication 625 00:37:00,168 --> 00:37:02,879 that should be taken out of print." 626 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,631 This is your first public statement, 627 00:37:05,673 --> 00:37:07,257 what's the response? 628 00:37:08,885 --> 00:37:15,055 I received no direct response from anyone. 629 00:37:15,097 --> 00:37:18,352 I did note that some publications, 630 00:37:18,393 --> 00:37:20,228 "The Guardian," for example, picked it up, 631 00:37:20,270 --> 00:37:21,979 and they ran a very short piece. 632 00:37:22,021 --> 00:37:24,190 "Author wants his book taken out of print." 633 00:37:24,231 --> 00:37:29,945 Um, I don't know whether it was picked up elsewhere or not. 634 00:37:29,987 --> 00:37:35,701 But there was no direct response to me from anyone. 635 00:37:35,742 --> 00:37:38,371 Have you tried to stop publication of the book? 636 00:37:40,205 --> 00:37:41,498 When the book came out, 637 00:37:41,540 --> 00:37:43,500 it was very, very clearly copyright 638 00:37:43,542 --> 00:37:45,335 in Lyle Stuart's name. 639 00:37:45,377 --> 00:37:47,171 Lyle Stuart Incorporated. 640 00:37:47,213 --> 00:37:50,130 I did not recognize at the time 641 00:37:50,172 --> 00:37:52,550 that that might be in any way unusual. 642 00:37:52,591 --> 00:37:55,178 I didn't know enough about publishing. 643 00:37:55,220 --> 00:37:58,556 Never published before, 19 years old. 644 00:37:58,597 --> 00:38:01,266 And Lyle let me know 645 00:38:01,308 --> 00:38:06,690 that the decision to continue publishing was his. 646 00:38:06,732 --> 00:38:09,399 That was not my decision. 647 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,068 And, um, basically, 648 00:38:12,109 --> 00:38:15,531 what I had a right to were the royalties 649 00:38:15,573 --> 00:38:22,036 until such time as, basically, he bought me out. 650 00:38:22,078 --> 00:38:25,707 Lyle Stuart declared bankruptcy, 651 00:38:25,749 --> 00:38:30,794 but sold the publishing house. So he wrote to me and said, 652 00:38:30,836 --> 00:38:35,215 would I accept $10,000 for all of the rights. 653 00:38:35,257 --> 00:38:36,884 And I wrote back and said absolutely. 654 00:38:36,926 --> 00:38:39,428 I don't want anything more to do with it. 655 00:38:39,469 --> 00:38:46,183 I thought it would just continue to fizzle. Fizzle away. 656 00:38:46,225 --> 00:38:49,771 What would have happened if you had said no? 657 00:38:49,812 --> 00:38:51,689 I don't know. 658 00:38:51,731 --> 00:38:54,108 Did you think about consulting a lawyer? 659 00:38:54,149 --> 00:38:56,277 To find out what your options were? 660 00:38:56,318 --> 00:38:58,905 No. I didn't think about that. 661 00:38:58,947 --> 00:39:00,990 Financially did it make sense? 662 00:39:01,031 --> 00:39:05,159 To take the $10,000 versus continue to get... 663 00:39:05,201 --> 00:39:06,954 Well, I wasn't going to get... 664 00:39:06,995 --> 00:39:08,998 I mean, it was very clear 665 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:13,126 that Lyle wasn't going to continue to publish it. 666 00:39:16,129 --> 00:39:20,216 So if Lyle Stuart was not going to publish the book, 667 00:39:20,258 --> 00:39:25,304 but he was asking if you would take a $10,000 payout 668 00:39:25,345 --> 00:39:28,181 and continue to be published, why did you not choose 669 00:39:28,223 --> 00:39:31,685 to have Lyle Stuart just not publish the book? 670 00:39:31,727 --> 00:39:33,813 Mmm. Mmm. 671 00:39:41,988 --> 00:39:45,072 It's a hard question. Um... 672 00:39:49,661 --> 00:39:51,537 I think probably 673 00:39:51,579 --> 00:39:56,542 I thought that the book was just going to die its own death. 674 00:39:56,584 --> 00:39:59,462 The $10,000 was welcome. 675 00:39:59,504 --> 00:40:03,756 Um, I was living on a teacher's salary. 676 00:40:03,798 --> 00:40:07,135 Um... 677 00:40:07,177 --> 00:40:09,805 Was that an opportunity for you to... 678 00:40:09,847 --> 00:40:11,139 It might have been. 679 00:40:11,181 --> 00:40:15,727 It might have been an opportunity for me to... 680 00:40:18,772 --> 00:40:24,151 But he was making a lot of money out of the book. 681 00:40:24,193 --> 00:40:27,030 So I knew how many copies were being sold. 682 00:40:27,071 --> 00:40:28,656 And I knew what I was receiving. 683 00:40:30,449 --> 00:40:32,242 And it was a lot? 684 00:40:32,284 --> 00:40:35,830 A lot of sales. Yeah, it was. 685 00:40:35,872 --> 00:40:38,082 So the book was not fizzling? 686 00:40:38,123 --> 00:40:40,165 Well, it was. It was. 687 00:40:40,207 --> 00:40:43,879 During the '70s, you're being paid royalties. 688 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,923 At any time were you uncomfortable 689 00:40:46,965 --> 00:40:49,633 with the fact that you were receiving money 690 00:40:49,675 --> 00:40:52,929 while you're uncomfortable with the content of the book? 691 00:40:52,971 --> 00:40:54,597 Hmm. 692 00:40:54,639 --> 00:40:57,975 Yeah. I... 693 00:41:00,185 --> 00:41:02,771 The royalties were not substantial, 694 00:41:02,813 --> 00:41:06,440 but I was growing uncomfortable with receiving them. 695 00:41:06,482 --> 00:41:09,277 But I continued to do so. 696 00:41:09,319 --> 00:41:11,530 How much? 697 00:41:11,572 --> 00:41:17,451 Total over the entire period that I received royalties, 698 00:41:17,492 --> 00:41:22,040 I probably received maybe $40 or $50,000. 699 00:41:22,082 --> 00:41:25,000 I mean, this is not a literary masterpiece. 700 00:41:25,042 --> 00:41:27,169 This is a fad book. 701 00:41:27,211 --> 00:41:29,213 And, essentially, my understanding was 702 00:41:29,255 --> 00:41:31,674 that it was going to go the way of all fads. 703 00:41:31,716 --> 00:41:36,387 People were going to increasingly lose interest in it. 704 00:41:36,429 --> 00:41:37,971 Or that's what I thought. 705 00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:42,225 I have a student down in the athletic hall. 706 00:41:42,267 --> 00:41:44,060 I see two shotgun shells on the ground right here. 707 00:41:44,102 --> 00:41:46,271 I heard two big bangs. Just "boom!" 708 00:41:46,312 --> 00:41:47,480 Sadly, it's happened again, 709 00:41:47,522 --> 00:41:49,649 this time a 17-year-old girl is in a coma 710 00:41:49,691 --> 00:41:51,192 fighting for her life this morning. 711 00:41:51,234 --> 00:41:52,818 Shot by one of her classmates. 712 00:41:52,860 --> 00:41:55,196 Could Karl Pierson have been quietly plotting 713 00:41:55,238 --> 00:41:56,697 a violent attack at his school 714 00:41:56,739 --> 00:41:58,032 for even a couple years? 715 00:41:58,074 --> 00:42:00,408 Karl had been reading "The Anarchist Cookbook" 716 00:42:00,450 --> 00:42:01,993 since sophomore year. 717 00:42:02,035 --> 00:42:05,164 I learned that the book had been 718 00:42:05,205 --> 00:42:09,876 found in the possession of a young man up in Colorado 719 00:42:09,918 --> 00:42:12,963 who had been engaged in a school shooting. 720 00:42:13,004 --> 00:42:16,215 "The Guardian" sent me an email 721 00:42:16,257 --> 00:42:20,218 inviting me to write an op-ed piece. 722 00:42:20,260 --> 00:42:23,723 "I wrote the Anarchist Cookbook in 1969. 723 00:42:23,765 --> 00:42:26,977 "Now I see its premise as flawed." 724 00:42:27,018 --> 00:42:30,062 "For the last 40 years, I have served as a teacher 725 00:42:30,104 --> 00:42:32,774 "and a school leader in Africa and Asia, 726 00:42:32,816 --> 00:42:36,525 "working in some of the poorest and least developed countries of the world. 727 00:42:36,567 --> 00:42:38,319 "Together with my wife, 728 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,949 "I have been involved in supporting schools around the world 729 00:42:41,991 --> 00:42:43,826 "in becoming more inclusive 730 00:42:43,867 --> 00:42:45,534 "of children with learning challenges. 731 00:42:45,576 --> 00:42:47,453 "So what is the connection 732 00:42:47,495 --> 00:42:51,083 "between the needs of these children with learning disabilities 733 00:42:51,125 --> 00:42:54,626 "and my wish to see the Cookbook go out of print? 734 00:42:54,668 --> 00:42:57,504 "The Cookbook has been found in the possession 735 00:42:57,545 --> 00:43:00,424 "of alienated and disturbed young people 736 00:43:00,466 --> 00:43:04,052 "who have launched attacks against classmates and teachers. 737 00:43:04,094 --> 00:43:07,055 "I suspect that the perpetrators of these attacks 738 00:43:07,097 --> 00:43:09,600 "did not feel much of a sense of belonging, 739 00:43:09,642 --> 00:43:13,435 "and the Cookbook may have added to their sense of isolation. 740 00:43:13,477 --> 00:43:18,566 It should go quickly and quietly out of print." 741 00:43:18,608 --> 00:43:21,276 To be clear, you did not approach "The Guardian" 742 00:43:21,318 --> 00:43:23,863 -to write... -No. No, they approached me. 743 00:43:23,904 --> 00:43:27,909 Did you think about speaking out more publicly? 744 00:43:27,951 --> 00:43:29,744 No. 745 00:43:29,786 --> 00:43:33,621 I'd already written two public statements. 746 00:43:33,663 --> 00:43:36,917 The one on Amazon and then the op-ed to "The Guardian." 747 00:43:36,959 --> 00:43:39,752 The op-ed to "The Guardian" came in 2013. 748 00:43:39,794 --> 00:43:41,546 -Correct. -13 years later. 749 00:43:41,587 --> 00:43:45,509 There were many incidents between 2000 and 2013. 750 00:43:45,551 --> 00:43:48,636 Were you aware of the incidents? 751 00:43:48,678 --> 00:43:51,638 I learned about Columbine, 752 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,268 and then later Arapahoe. 753 00:43:55,309 --> 00:44:01,148 I assumed that they were, isolated, kind of, events. 754 00:44:04,236 --> 00:44:06,278 The book is published in 1970. 755 00:44:06,319 --> 00:44:10,948 In 1976, John Adamson plants a bomb 756 00:44:10,990 --> 00:44:13,660 that killed a reporter investigating organized crime. 757 00:44:13,702 --> 00:44:16,662 When Bolles started to drive out of the hotel parking lot, 758 00:44:16,704 --> 00:44:18,414 his car exploded. 759 00:44:18,455 --> 00:44:21,042 A copy of the Cookbook was found in his apartment. 760 00:44:21,084 --> 00:44:24,128 I was not aware John Adamson was found 761 00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:26,297 in possession of the Cookbook. 762 00:44:26,338 --> 00:44:28,965 Five hijackers were arraigned in New York today 763 00:44:29,007 --> 00:44:30,717 for the murder of a New York police officer. 764 00:44:30,759 --> 00:44:33,511 In 1976, a hijacker 765 00:44:33,553 --> 00:44:36,806 hijacks a plane with bombs. The bombs turned out to be fake. 766 00:44:36,848 --> 00:44:39,893 And put a real bomb in Grand Central Station. 767 00:44:39,935 --> 00:44:42,104 He built the bombs using the book. 768 00:44:42,145 --> 00:44:43,646 I was not aware. 769 00:44:43,688 --> 00:44:47,900 But I didn't really follow that kind of news at the time. 770 00:44:47,942 --> 00:44:51,904 In 1979 I went off to Saudi Arabia 771 00:44:51,946 --> 00:44:54,823 and really didn't think anything more about it. 772 00:44:54,865 --> 00:44:56,909 And really, in the '80s, 773 00:44:56,951 --> 00:45:00,829 it was dormant. It was a dead issue during that whole time. 774 00:45:00,871 --> 00:45:03,624 In 1981, the Black Liberation Army 775 00:45:03,665 --> 00:45:05,167 is arrested for a bank robbery. 776 00:45:05,209 --> 00:45:08,670 Getaway car is filled with explosives, guns, 777 00:45:08,712 --> 00:45:10,546 and a copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook." 778 00:45:10,588 --> 00:45:15,176 In 1981, we moved to Tanzania. 779 00:45:15,218 --> 00:45:18,554 And there was absolutely no television in Tanzania. 780 00:45:18,596 --> 00:45:19,931 We've never had a television. 781 00:45:19,973 --> 00:45:22,309 We didn't even have a telephone in the house. 782 00:45:22,350 --> 00:45:24,227 Eight bombing in the past year 783 00:45:24,269 --> 00:45:26,561 in Washington D.C., Maryland, and Virginia. 784 00:45:26,603 --> 00:45:28,981 Mid '80s, Thomas Spinks 785 00:45:29,022 --> 00:45:31,108 bombed 10 abortion clinics. 786 00:45:31,150 --> 00:45:33,360 He has a copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook." 787 00:45:33,401 --> 00:45:35,445 A wave of parcel bombs that spread terror. 788 00:45:35,487 --> 00:45:38,740 1989, Walter Leroy Moody 789 00:45:38,782 --> 00:45:41,160 bombed and killed a federal judge, 790 00:45:41,201 --> 00:45:43,036 was in possession of the book. 791 00:45:44,829 --> 00:45:46,831 I... I didn't know about them. 792 00:45:46,872 --> 00:45:48,791 But would you say that you were interested 793 00:45:48,833 --> 00:45:50,876 in finding out more about these incidents? 794 00:45:50,918 --> 00:45:54,296 If I didn't know about it... and I didn't... 795 00:45:54,338 --> 00:45:57,258 it's not a question of being interested or not being interested, 796 00:45:57,300 --> 00:45:59,135 it's a question of being ignorant. 797 00:46:00,594 --> 00:46:02,554 The death toll is clearly increasing 798 00:46:02,596 --> 00:46:03,805 as the hours go by. 799 00:46:03,847 --> 00:46:05,265 The Oklahoma City bombing, 800 00:46:05,307 --> 00:46:07,267 did you ever learn that there was any connection? 801 00:46:07,309 --> 00:46:08,935 Was there? 802 00:46:08,977 --> 00:46:11,396 I had no idea 803 00:46:11,437 --> 00:46:15,775 that the Cookbook had been connected. 804 00:46:15,817 --> 00:46:17,944 This is Thurston High School, 805 00:46:17,986 --> 00:46:20,071 we have a gun on campus, there's someone shooting. 806 00:46:20,113 --> 00:46:22,031 The suspect may be Kip Kinkel. 807 00:46:22,072 --> 00:46:23,991 He gets off 51 shots. 808 00:46:24,033 --> 00:46:26,535 Even brought a copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook" to school. 809 00:46:26,576 --> 00:46:28,495 Back at his Springfield area home, 810 00:46:28,537 --> 00:46:30,496 Kinkel shoots both his parents. 811 00:46:30,538 --> 00:46:34,543 There was a terrible rash of attacks on kids in schools. 812 00:46:34,584 --> 00:46:37,587 But I hadn't associated those with the Cookbook. 813 00:46:37,629 --> 00:46:40,674 Multiple bomb sites. Three trains and a bus. 814 00:46:40,716 --> 00:46:43,176 The death toll rose from 37 to 50. 815 00:46:43,218 --> 00:46:45,094 London public transit bombings. 816 00:46:45,136 --> 00:46:47,804 I was obviously aware of the transit bombings. 817 00:46:47,846 --> 00:46:50,641 Soon it becomes clear that the congresswoman has been shot. 818 00:46:50,683 --> 00:46:53,811 I was very much aware of Gabby Giffords. 819 00:46:53,853 --> 00:46:58,732 In neither case was I reading anything about "The Anarchist Cookbook" or hearing it. 820 00:46:58,773 --> 00:47:01,109 There were articles about all of these stories. 821 00:47:01,151 --> 00:47:03,195 Again, I wasn't in the United States, 822 00:47:03,237 --> 00:47:07,073 and I didn't have access to American media. 823 00:47:07,114 --> 00:47:09,659 The Internet, making everything accessible. 824 00:47:09,701 --> 00:47:14,248 I wasn't trolling the Internet daily or even weekly, 825 00:47:14,289 --> 00:47:16,416 you know, looking for connections. 826 00:47:16,457 --> 00:47:17,667 Fair enough. 827 00:47:17,709 --> 00:47:21,337 When you would learn about another incident, 828 00:47:21,379 --> 00:47:26,591 did you think, "God, I hope the book is not connected?" 829 00:47:26,633 --> 00:47:28,928 No, I wasn't. 830 00:47:28,969 --> 00:47:31,055 No. 831 00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:34,766 I got seven down in theater nine! 832 00:47:34,807 --> 00:47:36,102 Seven down! 833 00:47:36,143 --> 00:47:37,978 We've got rifles, gas masks, 834 00:47:38,020 --> 00:47:39,604 and an open door going into the theater. 835 00:47:39,645 --> 00:47:42,606 In 2012, James Holmes 836 00:47:42,647 --> 00:47:46,319 shoots several people in an Aurora, Colorado, movie theater. 837 00:47:46,361 --> 00:47:47,946 Um... 838 00:47:49,489 --> 00:47:53,784 Was that the incident of the Batman film? 839 00:47:53,825 --> 00:47:56,788 Yes, I had heard about it or read about it in the paper. 840 00:47:56,829 --> 00:47:58,663 It has been suggested 841 00:47:58,705 --> 00:48:00,957 that "The Anarchist Cookbook" was used 842 00:48:00,998 --> 00:48:04,128 to set boobytraps for the police in his apartment. 843 00:48:04,169 --> 00:48:06,338 Homemade bombs and armed explosives. 844 00:48:06,380 --> 00:48:08,672 Large glass jars with homemade napalm 845 00:48:08,714 --> 00:48:10,425 filled with .40 caliber bullets. 846 00:48:10,467 --> 00:48:13,845 Around them are 11 green plastic bottles with gasoline. 847 00:48:13,887 --> 00:48:15,847 A morass of tripwires, 848 00:48:15,889 --> 00:48:18,640 a deadly jigsaw puzzle that had to be disarmed. 849 00:48:23,271 --> 00:48:25,689 When you heard of that story, 850 00:48:25,731 --> 00:48:29,818 did it occur to you that the book might have been used? 851 00:48:29,859 --> 00:48:31,279 No. 852 00:48:33,197 --> 00:48:35,325 No, it didn't occur to me. 853 00:48:35,366 --> 00:48:40,202 I didn't associate it with any of those. 854 00:48:40,244 --> 00:48:42,789 Why would I make the connection? 855 00:48:42,831 --> 00:48:44,500 You had written a book about it. 856 00:48:44,541 --> 00:48:45,791 An instructional book. 857 00:48:47,835 --> 00:48:52,466 You know, you may think that that's a very strange thing not to make, 858 00:48:52,508 --> 00:48:54,258 but it just didn't happen. 859 00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:59,555 I mean, this is the first time that I'm becoming aware 860 00:48:59,596 --> 00:49:04,976 of the laundry list of associations 861 00:49:05,018 --> 00:49:06,769 that the book has had. 862 00:49:14,985 --> 00:49:18,698 You don't wrestle as much as I thought you might 863 00:49:18,739 --> 00:49:20,699 with responsibility. 864 00:49:20,740 --> 00:49:23,910 Your sense of how responsible you are 865 00:49:23,952 --> 00:49:27,290 for the way that the book has been used. 866 00:49:27,332 --> 00:49:31,043 Um, do you feel responsible 867 00:49:31,084 --> 00:49:33,752 for the ways that the book has been used? 868 00:49:43,888 --> 00:49:46,266 Yes. 869 00:49:46,308 --> 00:49:49,685 I do feel responsible 870 00:49:49,727 --> 00:49:53,021 for the ways in which the book has been used. 871 00:49:59,069 --> 00:50:00,945 Have you always felt that way? 872 00:50:04,325 --> 00:50:08,495 When the Cookbook has been associated 873 00:50:08,537 --> 00:50:12,415 with Columbine, 874 00:50:12,456 --> 00:50:17,587 and the later Karl Pierson killing, 875 00:50:17,628 --> 00:50:21,340 I did feel responsible. 876 00:50:21,382 --> 00:50:23,634 But I didn't do it. 877 00:50:25,969 --> 00:50:29,181 And I wonder what sense of responsibility 878 00:50:29,223 --> 00:50:35,604 the factory worker has who makes the Smith & Wesson, 879 00:50:35,645 --> 00:50:37,855 or the Colt. 880 00:50:37,897 --> 00:50:42,110 What responsibility do they have 881 00:50:42,151 --> 00:50:46,072 when the weapon is misused? 882 00:50:46,114 --> 00:50:49,992 Now, I'm not comfortable with that analogy, 883 00:50:50,034 --> 00:50:52,202 so let's not pick it apart. 884 00:50:53,495 --> 00:50:59,627 But I think there is a sense of 885 00:50:59,668 --> 00:51:02,879 while I do feel responsible, 886 00:51:02,921 --> 00:51:06,883 I didn't do it. Somebody else. 887 00:51:06,925 --> 00:51:13,681 Somebody else with a perverted, distorted sense of reality 888 00:51:13,722 --> 00:51:15,933 did something awful. 889 00:51:15,975 --> 00:51:17,435 I didn't. 890 00:51:19,479 --> 00:51:23,941 Why isn't that your answer to all of these questions? 891 00:51:25,652 --> 00:51:28,069 Why do you feel any responsibility at all? 892 00:51:28,111 --> 00:51:33,283 Why isn't the answer simply, "I wrote a book. 893 00:51:33,325 --> 00:51:36,202 I didn't harm anyone." 894 00:51:36,244 --> 00:51:37,078 Mm-hmm. 895 00:51:38,664 --> 00:51:42,250 Even though there is a distance... 896 00:51:42,292 --> 00:51:44,919 I'm not responsible 897 00:51:44,961 --> 00:51:49,298 for the murder of children in Columbine... 898 00:51:49,340 --> 00:51:54,886 I'm appalled that in any way 899 00:51:54,928 --> 00:51:58,432 my work, my book, 900 00:51:58,474 --> 00:52:02,519 was influential or was associated with it, 901 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,271 and I do feel responsibility there. 902 00:52:26,750 --> 00:52:30,628 I really kind of reclused myself. 903 00:52:34,966 --> 00:52:37,886 I mean, to be really frank with you, 904 00:52:37,927 --> 00:52:40,180 part of the fact that I don't know 905 00:52:40,222 --> 00:52:41,682 is that I didn't want to know. 906 00:52:43,683 --> 00:52:45,476 The last thing I wanted to know 907 00:52:45,518 --> 00:52:51,148 was that it had been used in some sort of escapade 908 00:52:51,190 --> 00:52:52,900 that had ended up hurting people. 909 00:52:55,861 --> 00:53:00,575 So I think there was probably some avoidance on my part as well. 910 00:53:03,451 --> 00:53:06,245 Has it been difficult for you? 911 00:53:06,286 --> 00:53:08,331 The role that the book has played? 912 00:53:08,373 --> 00:53:13,127 There have been times where it's... 913 00:53:13,169 --> 00:53:15,504 made life quite difficult. 914 00:53:15,546 --> 00:53:19,426 And so, perhaps... 915 00:53:19,467 --> 00:53:24,637 And it was always people from outside 916 00:53:24,679 --> 00:53:28,308 who wanted to... 917 00:53:28,350 --> 00:53:33,187 Um, you know, get at Bill. 918 00:53:36,108 --> 00:53:41,528 1991, I was appointed the CEO of the school 919 00:53:41,570 --> 00:53:43,405 in Dar es Salaam. 920 00:53:43,447 --> 00:53:45,199 I went away for a conference. 921 00:53:45,241 --> 00:53:47,326 While I was away, 922 00:53:47,368 --> 00:53:51,288 there was delivered to my secretary a pile of envelopes. 923 00:53:51,329 --> 00:53:53,916 And in it is an anonymous letter 924 00:53:53,958 --> 00:53:57,002 and a photocopy of "The Anarchist Cookbook." 925 00:53:57,044 --> 00:53:59,587 So, it's an anonymous group of teachers, 926 00:53:59,629 --> 00:54:01,631 and they're saying to the board, 927 00:54:01,672 --> 00:54:06,136 "If you don't terminate Bill Powell's employment, 928 00:54:06,177 --> 00:54:10,055 "we will send copies of 'The Anarchist Cookbook' 929 00:54:10,097 --> 00:54:13,893 to the Ministry of Education, the Prime Minister..." 930 00:54:13,935 --> 00:54:16,647 So it's a blackmail attempt. 931 00:54:16,688 --> 00:54:20,690 It was a terrible, very painful experience. 932 00:54:20,732 --> 00:54:25,070 It was particularly difficult for me. 933 00:54:25,112 --> 00:54:27,322 I remember one time when Bill came home 934 00:54:27,363 --> 00:54:29,699 and it was really late at night, 935 00:54:29,741 --> 00:54:32,286 and our son Colin was at the door, 936 00:54:32,328 --> 00:54:34,037 and he was waiting and he said, 937 00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:37,998 "Dad, Dad! Do we still have a job?" 938 00:54:38,039 --> 00:54:43,087 And it was so... It was heartbreaking to see that. 939 00:54:43,129 --> 00:54:47,549 They advised me not to reapply 940 00:54:47,591 --> 00:54:51,095 for contract renewal after the end of my contract, 941 00:54:51,137 --> 00:54:53,514 which was coming up to an end in August. 942 00:54:53,555 --> 00:54:55,516 And the following day I resigned. 943 00:55:00,020 --> 00:55:04,273 The parents launched a petition to throw the board out. 944 00:55:04,315 --> 00:55:07,026 They got over 400 signatures 945 00:55:07,067 --> 00:55:10,823 and I stayed another five and a half years. 946 00:55:10,865 --> 00:55:13,574 I left the International School of Tanganyika 947 00:55:13,616 --> 00:55:17,244 of my own volition in '99. 948 00:55:17,286 --> 00:55:21,122 I did not put "The Anarchist Cookbook" on my CV. 949 00:55:21,164 --> 00:55:25,794 You know, you don't put things that you did when you were 19 950 00:55:25,836 --> 00:55:29,339 that you no longer agree with on your résumé. 951 00:55:29,381 --> 00:55:32,592 I applied for half a dozen or so jobs 952 00:55:32,634 --> 00:55:33,886 at international schools, 953 00:55:33,927 --> 00:55:37,597 and I wasn't shortlisted by any of them. 954 00:55:37,639 --> 00:55:40,766 Anonymous emails were going to those schools 955 00:55:40,808 --> 00:55:45,146 that included information about "The Anarchist Cookbook." 956 00:55:45,188 --> 00:55:49,441 I was shortlisted for the Lincoln School in Accra, Ghana. 957 00:55:49,483 --> 00:55:52,069 The interview went extremely well. 958 00:55:52,110 --> 00:55:55,447 And the chairman of the board all but offered the position. 959 00:55:55,489 --> 00:55:58,533 She comes to the hotel and she says, 960 00:55:58,575 --> 00:56:01,202 "We've just learned that you're the author of 'The Anarchist Cookbook.'" 961 00:56:01,244 --> 00:56:03,748 And I said that that's correct. 962 00:56:03,789 --> 00:56:06,583 She said, "Well, you're not a viable candidate." 963 00:56:06,624 --> 00:56:09,419 It was school after school after school. 964 00:56:09,460 --> 00:56:13,506 The American School of Paris, Turkey, came up with Accra. 965 00:56:13,548 --> 00:56:17,050 I thought it was going to bring my career to an end. 966 00:56:17,092 --> 00:56:22,223 Every time there was a viable position open, 967 00:56:22,265 --> 00:56:25,684 somebody was communicating with those schools saying, 968 00:56:25,726 --> 00:56:30,397 "If Bill Powell is a candidate, you need to know." 969 00:56:30,439 --> 00:56:33,566 It came up during the interview in Kuala Lumpur. 970 00:56:33,608 --> 00:56:36,193 I said to them, "If you offer me the job, 971 00:56:36,235 --> 00:56:40,865 "I'm going to write an email to every parent in the school 972 00:56:40,907 --> 00:56:44,827 and tell them about it." And that's exactly what I did. 973 00:56:44,869 --> 00:56:48,957 And I got absolutely no response from the parent community. 974 00:56:48,998 --> 00:56:50,916 There was nobody who was outraged. 975 00:56:50,958 --> 00:56:53,126 -I mean, it was... -We just thought it was a non-issue. 976 00:56:53,167 --> 00:56:55,044 There's a transparency there. 977 00:56:55,086 --> 00:56:58,089 It was successfully out of the picture. 978 00:56:58,131 --> 00:57:00,926 And the hope was that it would just... 979 00:57:00,968 --> 00:57:04,220 Go away, yeah. 980 00:57:04,262 --> 00:57:06,514 To be frank, you know, 981 00:57:06,556 --> 00:57:09,934 "The Anarchist Cookbook" rears its head every so often. 982 00:57:09,976 --> 00:57:14,563 But it's not a constant 983 00:57:14,605 --> 00:57:20,360 or continuous, um, issue. 984 00:57:20,402 --> 00:57:22,571 And I think, to be frank, also, 985 00:57:22,613 --> 00:57:28,744 it has been a source of pain. 986 00:57:28,786 --> 00:57:31,329 So, perhaps, to protect my family, 987 00:57:31,370 --> 00:57:34,540 it's maybe not something that I wanted to bring up. 988 00:57:34,582 --> 00:57:41,339 Because I did feel that we were under attack. 989 00:57:41,380 --> 00:57:43,215 We have been under attack. 990 00:57:45,844 --> 00:57:48,929 Two New York City women accused of plotting a terrorist attack. 991 00:57:48,971 --> 00:57:51,306 Court documents say they were influenced by ISIS. 992 00:57:51,348 --> 00:57:54,100 Those women had been researching how to make bombs... 993 00:57:54,142 --> 00:57:56,353 both women had copies of "The Anarchist Cookbook." 994 00:57:56,394 --> 00:57:59,189 Anarchist cookbooks or mayhem manuals... 995 00:57:59,230 --> 00:58:00,983 They became the precursors 996 00:58:01,025 --> 00:58:03,861 to al-Qaeda's online magazine, "Inspire." 997 00:58:03,902 --> 00:58:06,988 And one of the articles in "Inspire" is called 998 00:58:07,030 --> 00:58:09,239 "How to make a bomb in the kitchen of your Mom." 999 00:58:09,281 --> 00:58:13,285 So you can hear this incarnation of the '70s and '80s manuals. 1000 00:58:13,327 --> 00:58:16,580 "The Anarchist Cookbook," Senator Dianne Feinstein says 1001 00:58:16,622 --> 00:58:19,541 she wants that book removed from the Internet. 1002 00:58:19,582 --> 00:58:20,834 Saying, quote, 1003 00:58:20,876 --> 00:58:23,046 "these documents are not, in my view, 1004 00:58:23,087 --> 00:58:24,964 protected by the first amendment." 1005 00:58:25,006 --> 00:58:28,299 Would you say hoping it would go away didn't work? 1006 00:58:28,341 --> 00:58:30,175 More than that. 1007 00:58:30,217 --> 00:58:31,845 I think it was naive. 1008 00:58:31,887 --> 00:58:33,722 You know, we say to kids 1009 00:58:33,763 --> 00:58:36,432 to be really careful about what they put 1010 00:58:36,474 --> 00:58:40,478 on Facebook or any other social media 1011 00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,815 because those footprints last forever. 1012 00:58:43,857 --> 00:58:47,400 This has done exactly that same thing. 1013 00:58:47,441 --> 00:58:50,153 It's not easily controlled. 1014 00:58:50,195 --> 00:58:53,032 Do you resent the idea that anyone would say 1015 00:58:53,074 --> 00:58:54,950 that the book is in any way 1016 00:58:54,992 --> 00:58:58,579 responsible for people doing bad things? 1017 00:58:58,620 --> 00:59:00,581 You know, um... 1018 00:59:00,622 --> 00:59:03,042 I think that's a question that should be directed to me 1019 00:59:03,084 --> 00:59:05,125 -rather than Ochan. -Well, I'm just curious... 1020 00:59:05,166 --> 00:59:07,086 But Ochan didn't write the book. 1021 00:59:07,127 --> 00:59:09,213 She didn't even know me when the book was... 1022 00:59:09,255 --> 00:59:11,173 But I just mean because she's having to deal with 1023 00:59:11,215 --> 00:59:14,134 -the impact it has on both of your lives. -Why, I don't mind answering it. 1024 00:59:14,175 --> 00:59:19,015 You know, people read books all the time. 1025 00:59:19,057 --> 00:59:21,976 So, I think that at some point, 1026 00:59:22,018 --> 00:59:25,103 individual responsibility needs to kick in, 1027 00:59:25,144 --> 00:59:28,899 and I think that your visit here has kicked in 1028 00:59:28,941 --> 00:59:32,234 individual responsibility on our part, 1029 00:59:32,276 --> 00:59:35,155 but I think that other people also 1030 00:59:35,196 --> 00:59:38,283 must take responsibility for their actions. 1031 00:59:38,324 --> 00:59:43,327 Do you feel that Bill has been unfairly treated? 1032 00:59:43,369 --> 00:59:45,330 Well, I think that some of your questions 1033 00:59:45,372 --> 00:59:48,751 have been, um... 1034 00:59:48,793 --> 00:59:54,590 leading in a way that have... has perhaps made me uncomfortable. 1035 00:59:54,632 --> 00:59:56,341 Um... 1036 00:59:56,383 --> 00:59:58,094 I didn't... I didn't mean by me. 1037 00:59:58,136 --> 01:00:01,804 -Oh! Okay. -But... 1038 01:00:01,845 --> 01:00:04,057 but I apologize for that. 1039 01:00:04,099 --> 01:00:06,768 No, no, it's quite all right. 1040 01:00:06,810 --> 01:00:09,436 Um, no, I mean do you feel that 1041 01:00:09,478 --> 01:00:12,899 Bill has been unfairly treated by others, 1042 01:00:12,941 --> 01:00:16,027 that he's been given more blame than he deserves? 1043 01:00:16,069 --> 01:00:18,904 You know, every human being is a complex individual, 1044 01:00:18,946 --> 01:00:21,531 and Bill is a very complex person. 1045 01:00:21,573 --> 01:00:24,284 And I think that the people who know Bill 1046 01:00:24,326 --> 01:00:28,121 would see past the 19-year-old 1047 01:00:28,163 --> 01:00:30,457 into the person who he is today. 1048 01:00:32,334 --> 01:00:34,752 I would hope that people would see that. 1049 01:00:36,921 --> 01:00:39,632 In retrospect, do you wish 1050 01:00:39,674 --> 01:00:42,885 that you had done more 1051 01:00:42,927 --> 01:00:46,638 to deal with and to confront the book? 1052 01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,850 Charlie, I'm getting the impression 1053 01:00:48,891 --> 01:00:51,978 that you want me to say something I'm not saying. 1054 01:00:52,020 --> 01:00:55,689 I did what I thought was appropriate. 1055 01:00:55,730 --> 01:00:57,983 I did not contact a lawyer, 1056 01:00:58,026 --> 01:01:00,485 I did not, um... 1057 01:01:00,527 --> 01:01:03,487 go to family friends and then say, 1058 01:01:03,529 --> 01:01:05,239 "Do you have any advice for me?" 1059 01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,742 I did what I did 1060 01:01:07,784 --> 01:01:10,204 and I didn't do what I didn't do. 1061 01:01:10,244 --> 01:01:12,746 I mean, I... 1062 01:01:12,788 --> 01:01:16,375 If you're asking do I wish I had done more, yes. 1063 01:01:16,416 --> 01:01:18,002 Absolutely. 1064 01:01:18,044 --> 01:01:19,919 What would you like me to say? 1065 01:01:19,961 --> 01:01:22,755 'Cause I really think you're being deliberately provocative 1066 01:01:22,797 --> 01:01:24,757 and you want me to say something 1067 01:01:24,799 --> 01:01:26,510 that I'm not saying. 1068 01:01:27,928 --> 01:01:30,055 I was thinking about something else too. 1069 01:01:30,096 --> 01:01:33,391 You might have limited influence with the publisher. 1070 01:01:33,432 --> 01:01:36,519 That may be limited there, but I think that 1071 01:01:36,561 --> 01:01:39,479 once we start thinking about this 1072 01:01:39,521 --> 01:01:42,607 and thinking it through, there may be other avenues 1073 01:01:42,649 --> 01:01:44,026 that will open up for us. 1074 01:01:44,068 --> 01:01:48,488 I think what you're suggesting is that... 1075 01:01:48,530 --> 01:01:50,115 there are times and places that 1076 01:01:50,157 --> 01:01:53,369 it's worthy to fight for a lost cause. 1077 01:01:53,411 --> 01:01:56,370 Well, there are times and places where it's worthy to fight. 1078 01:01:56,412 --> 01:02:01,292 Yeah. Your voice could also appeal to adolescents. 1079 01:02:02,376 --> 01:02:03,378 Mm. 1080 01:02:03,420 --> 01:02:04,712 I mean, there might be other ways 1081 01:02:04,754 --> 01:02:06,630 to get the message across is what I was thinking. 1082 01:02:06,672 --> 01:02:09,926 Hm. Maybe. Yeah. 1083 01:02:21,645 --> 01:02:24,397 Our conversation yesterday afternoon 1084 01:02:24,439 --> 01:02:27,276 kind of disturbed me, and... 1085 01:02:29,152 --> 01:02:31,030 I spent some time 1086 01:02:31,072 --> 01:02:33,906 thinking about that in the night. 1087 01:02:33,948 --> 01:02:37,243 I wrote to Dianne Feinstein 1088 01:02:37,285 --> 01:02:40,537 because she had actually raised an issue 1089 01:02:40,579 --> 01:02:44,583 about the Cookbook some months ago. 1090 01:02:44,625 --> 01:02:47,211 Uh, Ochan? 1091 01:02:47,253 --> 01:02:48,880 Mm-hmm? 1092 01:02:48,922 --> 01:02:54,508 Got a response from Senator Feinstein 1093 01:02:54,550 --> 01:02:58,054 to the email that I sent earlier today. 1094 01:02:58,096 --> 01:03:03,684 Um, it's basically an out of office notice. 1095 01:03:03,726 --> 01:03:06,520 I think this is a computer filter 1096 01:03:06,562 --> 01:03:08,106 that is blocking, 1097 01:03:08,148 --> 01:03:13,443 um, and I don't know that any live, warm-body 1098 01:03:13,485 --> 01:03:15,946 is going to read what I've sent. 1099 01:03:15,988 --> 01:03:17,739 Oh, she says... Wait a minute, she says, 1100 01:03:17,781 --> 01:03:20,242 "Because of the volume of email that's received 1101 01:03:20,284 --> 01:03:22,661 "by the office, we can only respond 1102 01:03:22,702 --> 01:03:26,081 to email that includes a California postal address." 1103 01:03:26,123 --> 01:03:28,667 I don't have a postal address in California. 1104 01:03:30,002 --> 01:03:32,128 -So... -Is this... 1105 01:03:32,170 --> 01:03:34,171 sounds like a dead end. 1106 01:03:34,212 --> 01:03:36,590 I mean, I remember when your dad was alive, 1107 01:03:36,632 --> 01:03:40,219 he would call his congressman on various issues. 1108 01:03:40,261 --> 01:03:44,182 Um, is that what you do in California? 1109 01:03:46,892 --> 01:03:47,977 I don't know. 1110 01:03:48,019 --> 01:03:51,062 I really don't know. Um... 1111 01:03:54,482 --> 01:03:56,401 What time would we have to call her? 1112 01:03:56,442 --> 01:03:59,737 I mean, if you want to follow this. 1113 01:03:59,779 --> 01:04:01,322 Well... 1114 01:04:01,364 --> 01:04:02,949 Do you want to find her phone number 1115 01:04:02,991 --> 01:04:04,826 and it's 6:30, we can call her? 1116 01:04:08,954 --> 01:04:11,122 I can do that, yeah. 1117 01:04:11,164 --> 01:04:13,334 Um, hm. 1118 01:04:15,502 --> 01:04:16,962 Give it a go. 1119 01:04:17,004 --> 01:04:19,130 Crank this guy up again. 1120 01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,480 What is the earliest memory you have of school? 1121 01:04:37,605 --> 01:04:39,608 I suspect there were 1122 01:04:39,650 --> 01:04:43,529 some very good schools in Britain in the 1950s. 1123 01:04:43,571 --> 01:04:44,947 I didn't go to one. 1124 01:04:44,989 --> 01:04:47,448 I went to a pretty miserable school. 1125 01:04:47,489 --> 01:04:50,869 Students were motivated through fear. 1126 01:04:50,911 --> 01:04:53,538 Fear of physical punishment, 1127 01:04:53,580 --> 01:04:55,998 fear of public humiliation. 1128 01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:59,253 I can remember one particular time that 1129 01:04:59,294 --> 01:05:01,588 I must have been maybe five or six 1130 01:05:01,629 --> 01:05:04,090 and we were learning long division. 1131 01:05:04,131 --> 01:05:07,051 And in front of the class, I just got so stressed out. 1132 01:05:07,093 --> 01:05:08,969 I couldn't do it. 1133 01:05:09,011 --> 01:05:10,804 And she announced, 1134 01:05:10,846 --> 01:05:13,265 "Now we're going to put a problem on the board 1135 01:05:13,306 --> 01:05:18,229 that is so simple, that even Bill can solve it." 1136 01:05:18,271 --> 01:05:21,357 And she wrote up a three-digit addition problem, 1137 01:05:21,399 --> 01:05:22,523 straightforward, 1138 01:05:22,565 --> 01:05:25,276 which I could have done in a snap. 1139 01:05:25,317 --> 01:05:28,071 But I was so stressed out at that point that I couldn't. 1140 01:05:28,113 --> 01:05:29,489 I couldn't manage it. 1141 01:05:29,530 --> 01:05:30,948 I couldn't think straight. 1142 01:05:30,989 --> 01:05:33,909 I think I wet my pants. 1143 01:05:33,951 --> 01:05:36,329 I remember playing the fool 1144 01:05:36,371 --> 01:05:39,458 in a dance class and being caned 1145 01:05:39,499 --> 01:05:41,333 in the headmaster's office for that. 1146 01:05:41,375 --> 01:05:43,668 Bullying was rife. 1147 01:05:43,710 --> 01:05:46,464 People were looking for opportunities to fight 1148 01:05:46,505 --> 01:05:48,965 and I was never really good at fighting. 1149 01:05:49,006 --> 01:05:52,135 I guess I felt a sense of being an outsider. 1150 01:05:52,176 --> 01:05:53,762 Not really fitting. 1151 01:05:55,597 --> 01:05:58,224 My dad was transferred back to New York. 1152 01:05:58,266 --> 01:06:02,313 I came into a culture that I was completely unfamiliar with. 1153 01:06:02,354 --> 01:06:05,148 Content in school I knew nothing about, 1154 01:06:05,189 --> 01:06:07,483 people were talking about Paul Bunyan, 1155 01:06:07,524 --> 01:06:09,234 I'd never heard of Paul Bunyan. 1156 01:06:09,276 --> 01:06:10,402 The sports were different. 1157 01:06:10,444 --> 01:06:12,905 I didn't know who Mickey Mantle was. 1158 01:06:12,947 --> 01:06:16,199 I had a broad, upper-crust accent 1159 01:06:16,241 --> 01:06:17,951 people found very amusing. 1160 01:06:17,993 --> 01:06:21,622 My fifth grade teacher used to mimic me in the classroom. 1161 01:06:21,664 --> 01:06:25,333 I was alienated in Britain because I was an American 1162 01:06:25,374 --> 01:06:27,502 and now I came to the United States 1163 01:06:27,543 --> 01:06:29,504 and I was perceived as being British, 1164 01:06:29,545 --> 01:06:33,425 which I wasn't, and I was increasingly angry. 1165 01:06:35,968 --> 01:06:38,513 I made a habit of skipping school 1166 01:06:38,554 --> 01:06:40,598 'cause the consequences in the United States 1167 01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:43,224 were mild in comparison. 1168 01:06:43,266 --> 01:06:44,684 And at that point, 1169 01:06:44,725 --> 01:06:48,689 went up to Storm King School. 1170 01:06:50,441 --> 01:06:53,360 It was a boys prep school. 1171 01:06:53,401 --> 01:06:56,404 One of the classmates described it as 1172 01:06:56,446 --> 01:07:00,824 a school for rich, delinquent children. 1173 01:07:00,866 --> 01:07:06,998 There was a pretty unpopular boy in the dormitory 1174 01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:11,793 and a group of boys, myself included, 1175 01:07:11,835 --> 01:07:14,796 were engaged in bullying him. 1176 01:07:14,838 --> 01:07:18,385 Tied him to his bunk bed 1177 01:07:18,426 --> 01:07:20,134 and then took Bengay 1178 01:07:20,176 --> 01:07:23,137 and smeared it on his testicles. 1179 01:07:23,179 --> 01:07:27,975 The boy reported this to the dorm master 1180 01:07:28,017 --> 01:07:32,021 and I was the only one that was singled out 1181 01:07:32,063 --> 01:07:37,943 and I was taken to his room late at night in my pajamas. 1182 01:07:39,236 --> 01:07:42,239 He said that he would get me to experience 1183 01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,284 what the bullied boy had experienced. 1184 01:07:45,326 --> 01:07:49,787 So, he told me to go and get a jockstrap on 1185 01:07:49,829 --> 01:07:52,874 and then he got Bengay, 1186 01:07:52,917 --> 01:07:57,753 but instead of doing what the other boys had done 1187 01:07:57,794 --> 01:08:02,007 to the bullied boys, he fondled me. 1188 01:08:03,468 --> 01:08:06,637 At that point, I said, "I need to go to the toilet." 1189 01:08:06,678 --> 01:08:09,473 I went to the toilet, got my pajamas back on, 1190 01:08:09,515 --> 01:08:11,058 and left. 1191 01:08:12,476 --> 01:08:14,604 I didn't make it through the year. 1192 01:08:14,645 --> 01:08:18,398 I was expelled. 1193 01:08:34,122 --> 01:08:36,582 I'm sure you've given a fair amount of thought 1194 01:08:36,624 --> 01:08:40,294 to kids who turn to acts of violence. 1195 01:08:40,335 --> 01:08:41,587 Real violence. 1196 01:08:41,629 --> 01:08:43,422 Who are those kids? 1197 01:08:43,464 --> 01:08:45,757 I think there is... 1198 01:08:49,177 --> 01:08:52,013 something in the human condition 1199 01:08:52,055 --> 01:08:54,516 that draws us to violence. 1200 01:08:54,558 --> 01:08:57,935 It doesn't mean that's the only outcome that's possible, 1201 01:08:57,977 --> 01:09:01,814 but I think there is something that is intoxicating 1202 01:09:01,855 --> 01:09:04,609 about violence for many people. 1203 01:09:05,818 --> 01:09:10,072 Possibly for young people 1204 01:09:10,114 --> 01:09:13,367 who are angry, 1205 01:09:13,409 --> 01:09:16,744 alienated, who don't have a sense of belonging. 1206 01:09:16,786 --> 01:09:19,581 It may represent an endeavor 1207 01:09:19,623 --> 01:09:20,999 to be powerful, 1208 01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,793 to lash out at a world 1209 01:09:23,835 --> 01:09:26,004 that is not providing them with meaning. 1210 01:09:26,045 --> 01:09:29,257 I don't know. I mean, I think understanding 1211 01:09:29,299 --> 01:09:32,678 what is going on in the minds of those people 1212 01:09:32,718 --> 01:09:36,054 who have become radically antisocial 1213 01:09:36,096 --> 01:09:38,265 or radicalized in the sense that 1214 01:09:38,307 --> 01:09:40,476 they've gone off to fight with ISIS, 1215 01:09:40,518 --> 01:09:44,563 that's a $64,000 question. 1216 01:09:44,605 --> 01:09:50,486 But it's very difficult to see the world through their eyes. 1217 01:09:55,657 --> 01:09:59,076 I think the author of the book, myself at 19, 1218 01:09:59,118 --> 01:10:03,331 thought that we were living in an apocalypse. 1219 01:10:03,373 --> 01:10:05,249 The very late '60s, 1220 01:10:05,291 --> 01:10:08,169 the assassinations that were taking place, 1221 01:10:08,211 --> 01:10:11,796 the tone of the book has that sense to it. 1222 01:10:11,838 --> 01:10:13,757 You're either part of the problem, 1223 01:10:13,798 --> 01:10:15,509 you're part of the solution. 1224 01:10:15,551 --> 01:10:20,095 It's a very simplistic vision of the world. 1225 01:10:20,137 --> 01:10:21,682 Weak or strong? 1226 01:10:21,724 --> 01:10:22,807 Well, strong. 1227 01:10:22,849 --> 01:10:25,977 Forcefully argued or lacking confidence? 1228 01:10:26,019 --> 01:10:30,105 The book is supremely self-confident 1229 01:10:30,147 --> 01:10:34,276 to the point of being ludicrously self-confident. 1230 01:10:34,318 --> 01:10:38,112 It's forcefully presented, there's no quali... 1231 01:10:38,154 --> 01:10:41,617 there's very little qualification, if any at all. 1232 01:10:41,659 --> 01:10:42,744 Were you confident? 1233 01:10:49,957 --> 01:10:53,754 When I was alone with a typewriter, 1234 01:10:53,795 --> 01:10:55,671 I was confident. 1235 01:11:00,093 --> 01:11:02,721 No, I don't think I was confident. 1236 01:11:04,846 --> 01:11:06,849 There's a... 1237 01:11:06,891 --> 01:11:10,852 there's a kind of intoxication that you come to 1238 01:11:10,894 --> 01:11:13,187 when you're writing 1239 01:11:13,229 --> 01:11:16,567 and you're writing more and more forcefully. 1240 01:11:16,609 --> 01:11:19,653 The world is becoming simpler and simpler. 1241 01:11:19,695 --> 01:11:24,949 You're reaching what strikes you as powerful conclusions. 1242 01:11:24,991 --> 01:11:26,992 And they go to your head 1243 01:11:27,034 --> 01:11:30,537 and you come to believe what you're writing 1244 01:11:30,579 --> 01:11:35,543 and there is a sort of a... almost a snowball effect. 1245 01:11:41,214 --> 01:11:48,178 I suspect that there may be a parallel 1246 01:11:48,220 --> 01:11:51,766 between... 1247 01:11:51,808 --> 01:11:58,355 the young people who hurt and kill their classmates. 1248 01:11:58,397 --> 01:12:02,110 There may be a parallel between the process 1249 01:12:02,152 --> 01:12:04,655 of that kind of radicalization, 1250 01:12:04,696 --> 01:12:07,572 that kind of distorted perception, 1251 01:12:07,614 --> 01:12:10,659 and the kind of process 1252 01:12:10,700 --> 01:12:14,747 that I went through when writing the book. 1253 01:12:18,458 --> 01:12:21,295 And that may be a useful parallel 1254 01:12:21,337 --> 01:12:24,713 in terms of learning what might lead people 1255 01:12:24,755 --> 01:12:31,638 to cruel or lethal acts. 1256 01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:37,726 Was it realistic for me at the time of writing the book 1257 01:12:37,768 --> 01:12:40,146 to think that it wouldn't be used? 1258 01:12:40,188 --> 01:12:41,773 There's two answers to that. 1259 01:12:41,815 --> 01:12:46,275 One answer comes from a 65-year-old and says, 1260 01:12:46,317 --> 01:12:49,822 "No, that's not reasonable." 1261 01:12:49,864 --> 01:12:53,032 The other answer comes from a 19-year-old 1262 01:12:53,073 --> 01:12:55,660 who hadn't thought about it. 1263 01:12:57,454 --> 01:13:01,207 You refer to the book as your constant companion. 1264 01:13:01,248 --> 01:13:02,833 What do you mean by that? 1265 01:13:02,875 --> 01:13:07,338 It's part of my history, it's part of me. 1266 01:13:07,380 --> 01:13:11,633 I have to recognize that it does exist 1267 01:13:11,675 --> 01:13:13,844 and it can't be just dismissed. 1268 01:13:13,886 --> 01:13:16,848 I can't sort of say, "Sorry. You know, 1269 01:13:16,890 --> 01:13:22,059 I did that when I was 19, but that's in the past." 1270 01:13:22,100 --> 01:13:24,353 So, it is with me. 1271 01:13:27,147 --> 01:13:31,569 I had half of my childhood in Britain, 1272 01:13:31,610 --> 01:13:34,823 half of my childhood in the United States, 1273 01:13:34,865 --> 01:13:38,868 and now I feel equally uncomfortable in both countries. 1274 01:13:44,456 --> 01:13:46,666 I think I am most comfortable 1275 01:13:46,708 --> 01:13:49,669 where I know that I don't belong. 1276 01:13:55,174 --> 01:13:57,886 I stick out like a sore thumb 1277 01:13:57,928 --> 01:14:03,807 and it's okay for me to be the outsider looking in. 1278 01:14:06,769 --> 01:14:09,939 We first came to this whole part of France 1279 01:14:09,980 --> 01:14:12,482 in the summer of '92. 1280 01:14:12,524 --> 01:14:15,527 Massat has a very, very interesting history. 1281 01:14:15,569 --> 01:14:19,154 Kind of always been a village at the end of the road. 1282 01:14:19,196 --> 01:14:22,951 People were perceived as outsiders. 1283 01:14:22,992 --> 01:14:24,535 It's just so out of the way. 1284 01:14:24,577 --> 01:14:25,912 It's really remote. 1285 01:14:27,622 --> 01:14:32,084 After '68 and the failed revolution in Paris, 1286 01:14:32,126 --> 01:14:39,090 many of the would-be revolutionaries came to this area. 1287 01:14:39,132 --> 01:14:41,635 So, it's kind of an interesting blend 1288 01:14:41,676 --> 01:14:44,345 of kind of aging hippies 1289 01:14:44,387 --> 01:14:49,058 and Massat peasants. 1290 01:14:49,100 --> 01:14:52,729 And we have nothing in common with anybody else here. 1291 01:14:52,771 --> 01:14:58,233 So, we have to import, um, company. 1292 01:14:58,275 --> 01:15:01,069 Does the privacy appeal to you? 1293 01:15:01,111 --> 01:15:04,865 - Sure. -I think it appeals to Bill more than it appeals to me. 1294 01:15:04,907 --> 01:15:10,037 I think Ochan is far more social than I am. 1295 01:15:11,998 --> 01:15:13,415 But I have your company. 1296 01:15:13,457 --> 01:15:15,249 Oh, I like yours. 1297 01:15:18,711 --> 01:15:20,005 It's an odd place, 1298 01:15:20,046 --> 01:15:22,882 but I also find it a very welcoming place. 1299 01:15:25,301 --> 01:15:28,387 I wouldn't mind living in the United States. 1300 01:15:35,226 --> 01:15:37,354 But maybe not yet. 1301 01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:46,446 What is that like, to know that something 1302 01:15:46,488 --> 01:15:49,074 that you have put out into the world, 1303 01:15:49,115 --> 01:15:52,284 you could be reading about it tomorrow, 1304 01:15:52,326 --> 01:15:54,078 you could be reading about it a year from now? 1305 01:15:54,119 --> 01:15:57,081 You know, we talk about the cliche 1306 01:15:57,122 --> 01:15:59,666 of the skeleton in the closet. 1307 01:15:59,708 --> 01:16:02,086 Well, my skeleton's not in my closet. 1308 01:16:02,127 --> 01:16:05,882 My skeleton is in print. 1309 01:16:05,923 --> 01:16:08,800 There's two million copies or whatever there. 1310 01:16:10,259 --> 01:16:12,346 It has been influential 1311 01:16:12,388 --> 01:16:14,639 in terrible... 1312 01:16:14,681 --> 01:16:19,142 massacres and murders and killings... 1313 01:16:19,184 --> 01:16:24,107 um, and... 1314 01:16:24,148 --> 01:16:25,734 I live with that. 1315 01:16:33,032 --> 01:16:34,867 After "The Anarchist Cookbook," 1316 01:16:34,909 --> 01:16:37,410 you wrote another book. 1317 01:16:37,451 --> 01:16:39,955 I've written a number of books, but the book that came 1318 01:16:39,997 --> 01:16:42,917 immediately after "The Anarchist Cookbook" 1319 01:16:42,958 --> 01:16:47,378 was a historical novel entitled "The First Casualty." 1320 01:16:47,420 --> 01:16:51,716 It was the story of the assassination 1321 01:16:51,758 --> 01:16:55,260 of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in 1914. 1322 01:16:55,301 --> 01:16:59,140 It was the spark that caused the First World War, 1323 01:16:59,181 --> 01:17:01,059 and it's told from the point of view 1324 01:17:01,101 --> 01:17:03,560 of the assassin, Gavrilo Princip. 1325 01:17:03,602 --> 01:17:05,478 What fascinated you about him? 1326 01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:07,815 He was a true believer. 1327 01:17:07,857 --> 01:17:10,191 "My country has been stolen from me 1328 01:17:10,233 --> 01:17:12,651 and I'm a patriot. I'm a freedom fighter." 1329 01:17:12,693 --> 01:17:16,782 He was an impressionable adolescent. 1330 01:17:16,823 --> 01:17:19,325 He really literally was a schoolboy. 1331 01:17:19,367 --> 01:17:22,078 He crafted an identity for himself 1332 01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:25,124 and then acted on that identity. 1333 01:17:25,165 --> 01:17:28,127 He had the courage of his convictions, 1334 01:17:28,168 --> 01:17:30,543 as misguided as those may be, 1335 01:17:30,585 --> 01:17:34,757 and by accident suddenly sets the world on fire. 1336 01:17:34,799 --> 01:17:38,343 It's almost like that butterfly effect. 1337 01:17:38,385 --> 01:17:40,095 Tiny event here, 1338 01:17:40,137 --> 01:17:42,806 huge consequences somewhere else. 1339 01:17:42,847 --> 01:17:46,685 That story fascinated me. 1340 01:17:46,727 --> 01:17:49,311 And none of the description that you just offered 1341 01:17:49,352 --> 01:17:51,605 you think applies to you? 1342 01:17:56,902 --> 01:17:57,736 Um... 1343 01:18:01,406 --> 01:18:03,576 Applies to me? Um...